Where did you read "all amps are sounding the same", that would be considered real BS, at least by some objectivists but again, where did you see such posts/claims, any link to one or two? I would think that if one is an objectivist, one would understand a $20 amp that has distortions above the threshold of audibility, would not sound the same as an amp such as the buckeye amps (any of his) when driving a pair of something like KEF reference series speakers.
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All amplifiers do not sound the same
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Where did you read "all amps are sounding the same", that would be considered real BS, at least by some objectivists but again, where did you see such posts/claims, any link to one or two? I would think that if one is an objectivist, one would understand a $20 amp that has distortions above the threshold of audibility, would not sound the same as an amp such as the buckeye amps (any of his) when driving a pair of something like KEF reference series speakers.
solderdude
Grand Contributor
Are those the tools or are you calling people using measurement tools 'tools' or is the word 'tools' one of your tools to sow doubt ?
You clearly do not understand measurements. So yes, yes we do know that with absolute certainty.
You just formulate it this way so the burden of proof is not on you.
I will turn it around and would invite you to tell us which amp has 'sibilance' and you have to provide proof in the form of a 6kHz FFT (which won't work).
Hint: You can run an FFT on various amps using 3kHz sine, 2kHz sine, 1.5kHz sine and then you can see what the 6kHz harmonic 'adds'.
Then do an FFT using a 1kHz sine wave and you will see that they will look very similar at around 6kHz.
Square waves are still used, mainly during development. They can quickly show overshoot, (onset of) oscillations on various loads and HF performance.
NOT specifically the 6-8 kHz band though.
Nobody says all amps sound the same. All competently designed amps used within their limits with wide enough power bandwidth and low enough distortion under intended load conditions can not be told apart in level matched well performed blind test. These amps all will measure different though and is one of the reasons Amir measures as much models as possible.
"All amps sound the same" is simply a provocation, not a fact. I agree that all amps that measure identically well will sound the same.
Anyway, in more than 50 years of active audio, I have heard more worse sounding amps in the medium price class than those that "sound the same" and good.
We don't know why, simply because no one measured the right thing and discovered the cause of them sounding so ugly. Look at the "test labs" of HIFI publications. They only do very simple tests, even today, like they did in the last century. Ask why.
Today, bulding an amp that sounds good is no problem any more. If you are a very lowly educated, untalented developer, just take some D-amp-chip and follow the data sheet. Look how the better engineers did it, copy and steel any trick, and, yes, publish no data sheet. Then, produce it cheaper than any European can, add some clever marketing in audio forums and you have reached the apex of amp sound. For a price that will not even buy you a pair of WBT connectors, you got a world class amp you can sell to us audiofools. We have 2025...
The early eighties were the time when knowledge about the problems of A/B amps got realized in the industry and parts to build perfect amps became largely available. Some brands that where to arrogant to learn, vanished. Like most of the German, DIN 45.500 Hifi industry. The old heros didn't want the younger engineers to take their place and blocked them. So even a decade later not anyone building amps did it right, for very different reasons. Many brands didn't want their cheap models to sound like the top dogs. The pea counters with a bussines degre and no clue of audio, wielding their red markers, got a saying in how amps had to be build, cheaping out on the last capacitor. A lot of companies ditched the expensive developers fiddeling in their labs, out sourcething developments to the cheapest offer. So for a long time, amps not sounding the same, but worse, flooded the consumer market.
If you are a relict of that time, you can not say "all amps sound the same". Anyway, taking the last 10 years as a measure, all amps can sound the same, to some degree, if they are done right. I still don't trust the load of any passive speaker with a passive crossover, I think there is the point where some amps at some level, with some program may suffer, but that is only my private oppinion. Even is I have heard a very large number of amps, my findings from personal experience are not statistically relevant.
Anyway, in more than 50 years of active audio, I have heard more worse sounding amps in the medium price class than those that "sound the same" and good.
We don't know why, simply because no one measured the right thing and discovered the cause of them sounding so ugly. Look at the "test labs" of HIFI publications. They only do very simple tests, even today, like they did in the last century. Ask why.
Today, bulding an amp that sounds good is no problem any more. If you are a very lowly educated, untalented developer, just take some D-amp-chip and follow the data sheet. Look how the better engineers did it, copy and steel any trick, and, yes, publish no data sheet. Then, produce it cheaper than any European can, add some clever marketing in audio forums and you have reached the apex of amp sound. For a price that will not even buy you a pair of WBT connectors, you got a world class amp you can sell to us audiofools. We have 2025...
The early eighties were the time when knowledge about the problems of A/B amps got realized in the industry and parts to build perfect amps became largely available. Some brands that where to arrogant to learn, vanished. Like most of the German, DIN 45.500 Hifi industry. The old heros didn't want the younger engineers to take their place and blocked them. So even a decade later not anyone building amps did it right, for very different reasons. Many brands didn't want their cheap models to sound like the top dogs. The pea counters with a bussines degre and no clue of audio, wielding their red markers, got a saying in how amps had to be build, cheaping out on the last capacitor. A lot of companies ditched the expensive developers fiddeling in their labs, out sourcething developments to the cheapest offer. So for a long time, amps not sounding the same, but worse, flooded the consumer market.
If you are a relict of that time, you can not say "all amps sound the same". Anyway, taking the last 10 years as a measure, all amps can sound the same, to some degree, if they are done right. I still don't trust the load of any passive speaker with a passive crossover, I think there is the point where some amps at some level, with some program may suffer, but that is only my private oppinion. Even is I have heard a very large number of amps, my findings from personal experience are not statistically relevant.
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rcstevensonaz
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kemmler3D
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Do you really think the 6Khz line could possibly shoot up in this graph, if there were one? 1Khz and 5Khz and 10Khz are fine but somehow 6Khz, not fine?
Especially when we have this:
And this:
To show there's no deviation in amplitude at 6Khz and there's no rise in distortion at around 6250hz either?
This is sort of like saying your car drives fine at 50Mph and 80Mph but goes crazy at 60Mph. This is possible for cars and audio gear in the case of resonances. Which clearly this amp does not have.
It would show up in the previous graphs if so.
Everything that processes audio (amp or otherwise) with inaudible noise, inaudible distortion, and flat frequency response beyond human hearing should sound the same. What else are you expecting to happen? There's nothing to hear, and that's the point!
good active speakers and the amplifier issue goes away ;-)
My two cent's worth? Amplifiers that measure the same in relevant parameters will sound the same. If they don't, then it's possible difference might be audible.
guessing here; never happy because you have experienced magical moments of sound reproduction somewhere else, that you have never been unable to achieve at home? have you considered cognitive bias may be in the way? it is quite strong in humans you know.
Even the distortion of most tube amps is not audible to 99% of people.
Listening Test
Do the test with real music and show us your results. You'll see even hearing -60db distortion is incredibly hard.
Even the distortion of 80$ amplifiers is inaudible in moderate listening levels.
LOL "if they don't, then it's possible difference might be audible?
This struck my funny bone.
I've listened to many power amps and there is always a reason if they sound different. It's usually transient issues on difficult music/sound going from one extremely FR to another, (full blown orchestra that uses every instrument, organs, tree drums, etc.) on extremely difficult speakers to drive. EX Infinity Kappa 9.0 and then being silly enough to not bi/amp at least.
Try pushing Infinity Kappa 9.0 with and without bi/amping, even with a single 500-watt class D. If you can't tell the difference by using two amps, go get your ears checked.
I used Adcoms 5800/5500/7400/565s (MB) and the 5800 would get REAL toasty by the end of Dark Side of the Moon. The fans kick in for the first and only times on that album.
Running non biamped there was very noticeable difference with the 5500 on most of the music I listened to. It usually had some pretty heavy bass tracks. Carlos, Gram Central Station, Michael Jackson, quite a bit of country western.
BTW the 7400, 5500 and 5800 sounded quite close, BUT different than any of the GFA 565s MB I used at the time. I hated the 565s. All brand new out of the box. 4 565s, 2 5500, 2 5800s and one 7400 all running a surround system off a MX120 with Infinity Kappa 9.0 (2), VMPS STIIR (3) (one was a center), QSO 808s (4) and VMPS passive subs (2-4)
Impressive sub/bass system though. Every one of those different models had a different sound and NONE were ever driven to clip, shut down, blow a fuse. They sure ran warm running the STIIR and HOT running the Kappa 9.0. always sounded clean as they drained the local PG&E pole dry though. LOL
I still have the whole pallet of amps too (I think).
Regards
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watchnerd
Grand Contributor
LOL "if they don't, then it's possible difference might be audible?
This struck my funny bone.
I've listened to many power amps and there is always a reason if they sound different. It's usually transient issues on difficult music/sound going from one extremely FR to another, (full blown orchestra that uses every instrument, organs, tree drums, etc.) on extremely difficult speakers to drive. EX Infinity Kappa 9.0 and then being silly enough to not bi/amp at least.
Try pushing Infinity Kappa 9.0 with and without bi/amping, even with a single 500-watt class D. If you can't tell the difference by using two amps, go get your ears checked.
I used Adcoms 5800/5500/7400/565s (MB) and the 5800 would get REAL toasty by the end of Dark Side of the Moon. The fans kick in for the first and only times on that album.
Running non biamped there was very noticeable difference with the 5500 on most of the music I listened to. It usually had some pretty heavy bass tracks. Carlos, Gram Central Station, Michael Jackson, quite a bit of country western.
BTW the 7400, 5500 and 5800 sounded quite close, BUT different than any of the GFA 565s MB I used at the time. I hated the 565s. All brand new out of the box. 4 565s, 2 5500, 2 5800s and one 7400 all running a surround system off a MX120 with Infinity Kappa 9.0 (2), VMPS STIIR (3) (one was a center), QSO 808s (4) and VMPS passive subs (2-4)
Impressive sub/bass system though. Every one of those different models had a different sound and NONE were ever driven to clip, shut down, blow a fuse. They sure ran warm running the STIIR and HOT running the Kappa 9.0. always sounded clean as they drained the local PG&E pole dry though. LOL
I still have the whole pallet of amps too (I think).
Regards
Wow, this is stuff from when I was in college.
Those Infinity's dip down to 1 ohm, if I recall.
Pretty pathological speaker design.
The question is better phrased as who came up with the bullshit that all amps sound different under any conditions? That's the bigger bullshit. Personally I haven't found many amps so poor as to sound different/broken.
All being the difference. Because more than a few amps have been voiced to the designers' EAR, not a set of given FLAT as board measurements.
Pass did it, Carver could do it, and Dodd was notorious for adding his personal touch to a few different valve and SS amps.
It's not in any way broken because someone made it that way. If that were true, we would ALL be driving one design of transportation, just as one example.
One man's peach is another man's pit. I mean, all singers with records don't check all the blocks for me. Patty LaBelle vs Yoko Ono.
What perfect measuring amp is going to fix that? A "broken" one might fit the bill even better.
Regards
Quite a point why this discussion is still alive. Former champions that can’t hold the water to average modern designs and it takes a nuklear power plant to drive them halfway decent.
JSmith
Master Contributor
Meh, you're giving too much credit to the "voicing". Seems it's mostly the user's imagination.All being the difference. Because more than a few amps have been voiced to the designers' EAR, not a set of given FLAT as board measurements.
Pass did it, Carver could do it, and Dodd was notorious for adding his personal touch to a few different valve and SS amps.
It's not in any way broken because someone made it that way. If that were true, we would ALL be driving one design of transportation, just as one example.
One man's peach is another man's pit. I mean, all singers with records don't check all the blocks for me. Patty LaBelle vs Yoko Ono.
What perfect measuring amp is going to fix that? A "broken" one might fit the bill even better.
Regards
.. and the DAC issue , i had digital actives of different models for 20 years I don't have the faintest idea of what DAC or AMP inhabits them
No. Your fantasy I suppose.All being the difference. Because more than a few amps have been voiced to the designers' EAR, not a set of given FLAT as board measurements.
Pass did it, Carver could do it, and Dodd was notorious for adding his personal touch to a few different valve and SS amps.
It's not in any way broken because someone made it that way. If that were true, we would ALL be driving one design of transportation, just as one example.
One man's peach is another man's pit. I mean, all singers with records don't check all the blocks for me. Patty LaBelle vs Yoko Ono.
What perfect measuring amp is going to fix that? A "broken" one might fit the bill even better.
Regards
Ralph_Cramden
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Peter Walker: An amplifier should, within its limits of voltage and rate of change of voltage,
(which is slew rate limiting) if you keep within those two it should be very much
better than any program material. These are the things that are measured at .01
per cent or .05 per cent. But what is listened to is usually a program with 2 or 3
per cent distortion in the first place. That's the least you can get on records,
tapes, and such things. Listening tests are usually not done in this region of .01
percent distortion. I'm quite convinced within that range the amplifier is just as
perfect as you like to make it. It's quite possible to put 50 amplifiers in cascade,
each one into a load, potted down into the next one, and to listen to the 50th one
or to listen to the first one, and the sound will be virtually the same. So I think you
can make an amplifier just as good as you like, and no more different than a
piece of wire. But where they vary, when these tests are done, are a whole lot of
areas. To start with, you can compare one amplifier with a bass cut-off of 20 Hz
and another one that goes right down to DC. If you've got a program with a bit of
fluffing going on at 5 Hz or so, the speaker cone in one case will be moving, and
in the other case it won't be moving, so the sound from the speaker will be
different. This isn't really a condemnation of the amplifier, it's that they shouldn't
have this 5 Hz stuff there in the first place. So if you compare an amplifier with a
straight wire, you've really got to make the straight wire have the same
bandwidth as the amplifier, and the same terminating impedance as the
amplifier. Once you do all these things, then the amps will be just as good as the
straight wire. The peripheral effects are what get people into trouble. You can
see why you find these differences in amplifiers. You can always find them. If
people test two amplifiers and say, "These sound different," there's no magic in
it. Spend two days, maybe a whole week in the lab, and you find out exactly why
they're different and you can write the whole thing down in purely practical,
physical terms. This is why these two sound different, and the cause is usually
peripheral effects. It is not really a case of good or bad amplifiers, it's that the
termination impedances are wrong, or something of that sort.
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