All About UFO's

[mhardy6647]

I personally believe everything that is logically consistent happens "somewhere" because nothing is stopping it from happening, but it's an easy thing to believe because it implies nothing in particular for our own universe.

I do concur with your assessment (FWIW, which, admittedly, ain't much) and... whilst treading on some topically thin ice (albeit quite gingerly) vis-a-vis the Rules here at ASR -- that notion aligns, at least to my way of thinking , rather nicely with the notion of a plausibly omniscient God.

 

[terryforsythe]

Much of the knowable universe is already out of sight, and these regions are growing.

There is a school of thought that speculates the universe is closed, and that anything traveling in a straight line would return to its origin.

One caveat: if the speed of light truly is the universal speed limit, which all experiments conducted thus far seem to confirm, one could never travel fast enough to make it back to the origin - the farthest reaches of the universe are receding away from us faster than the speed of light due to the expansion of the universe. Note that the distant objects are not traveling faster than the speed of light, it is that there is so much space between those objects and us that is expanding.

 

[solderdude]

You just need the spice melange !

 

[Tim Link]

One caveat: if the speed of light truly is the universal speed limit, which all experiments conducted thus far seem to confirm, one could never travel fast enough to make it back to the origin - the farthest reaches of the universe are receding away from us faster than the speed of light due to the expansion of the universe. Note that the distant objects are not traveling faster than the speed of light, it is that there is so much space between those objects and us that is expanding.

Thinking about this expansion of space itself I got the notion that if you accelerated yourself in one direction so that you were moving very fast compared to the galaxy you started in, in time your average speed relative to nearby galaxies would slow down. I wasn't sure if that was correct but I've watched some recent physics videos that suggested it is correct, and that the idea of conservation of energy is a local phenomenon. To quote AI "Thus, energy is conserved locally everywhere, but not globally in cosmological contexts, making it a local phenomenon rather than a universal one. "

This makes our situation feel even more like the ultimate trap! Oh well, it's a pretty big cage. Also, you can always refuel and do another acceleration when you feel you're not making fast enough progress anymore.

 

[terryforsythe]

Thinking about this expansion of space itself I got the notion that if you accelerated yourself in one direction so that you were moving very fast compared to the galaxy you started in, in time your average speed relative to nearby galaxies would slow down. I wasn't sure if that was correct but I've watched some recent physics videos that suggested it is correct

That is correct. EDIT: Assuming those other galaxies are receding from ours. I don't think that would be correct for the Andromeda galaxy, which is moving toward ours and expected to merge with the Milky Way, maybe in around 4.5 billion years or so.

and that the idea of conservation of energy is a local phenomenon. To quote AI "Thus, energy is conserved locally everywhere, but not globally in cosmological contexts, making it a local phenomenon rather than a universal one. "

That makes sense if my understanding about the current leading hypotheses pertaining to the expansion of our universe are correct. For example, the leading hypothesis is that dark energy is driving the expansion of the universe. But, there also is the hypothesis that dark energy is an inherent propery of space, and is constant per unit volume. Combining those two hypotheses (or maybe together they form a single more encompassing hypotheses), the expansion of space creates more space, and thus more dark energy, which continues driving the expansion of space, which continues creating more dark energy, and so on. That violates the conservation of energy.

Some physicists (e.g., Leonard Susskind, etc.) hypothesize that space-time is not fundamental, but instead is emergent from a more fundamental structure. Now, using that hypothesis as a basis, I'll throw in my hypothesis (note that I am not a physicist): If space-time indeed is emergent from a more fundamental structure, it could be that dark energy is transferring to space-time from that structure as space expands. That could solve the conservation of energy issue. But, like I said, I am not a physicist, so don't take it too seriously.

 

[Petrushka]

Existence, properly viewed, is indistinguishable from magic.

 

[mhardy6647]

To my surprise and delight, the Obama cut and run on aliens made NPR news this morning!?!

 

[pablolie]

One caveat: if the speed of light truly is the universal speed limit, which all experiments conducted thus far seem to confirm, one could never travel fast enough to make it back to the origin - the farthest reaches of the universe are receding away from us faster than the speed of light due to the expansion of the universe. Note that the distant objects are not traveling faster than the speed of light, it is that there is so much space between those objects and us that is expanding.

The speed of light clearly doesn't stay in the way of quantum entanglement.

Which leads to "distance" (i.e. "the universe is receding")... we know the universe is multi-dimensional. Our observations of "distance" are based on our limitations to observe and experience outside the 4 dimensions we exist and hence often think in.

We can not explain the laws of the universe in ways that conform to our human way of experiencing things. Our entire model of physics is limited to the phenomena we can observe and model for repeatability. We're still primates using very advanced twig technology, as Douglas Adams famously quipped.

 

[terryforsythe]

The speed of light clearly doesn't stay in the way of quantum entanglement.

Quantum entanglement is strange; it enables non-local (instantaneous) causality, but not FTL signaling or communication. If and when we ever fully understand quantum entanglement, that could open possibilities that now seem impossible.

 

[pablolie]

Quantum entanglement is strange; it enables for non-local (instantaneous) causality, but not FTL signaling or communication. If and when we ever fully understand quantum entanglement, that could open possibilities that now seem impossible.

I am sure once we fully understand that, the next layer of our inability to crack the code of the universe will emerge. And quantum physics is just something we keep stumbling on as we try to decipher what the true universal nature of "matter" is. Note we don't even know the true nature of everyday things we live with... like something as "simple" as light, which is "photons" and "waves" all at once...

We probably will never be around long enough to "understand" the "truth" of the universe. It's a bit like the early Greek philosophical allegory of the cave... we are limited to shadows, to reflections we can observe... but not to fully understand the full nature of truth.

These things quickly turn into philosophy, metaphysical stuff and even religion. When humans don't understand, they can build weird belief systems.

To bring it back to the topic, I am 100% convinced "alien life forms" exist in the universe in millions of forms, the majority of which we wouldn't even recognize. OTOH, I have major doubts believing anyone would go through the trouble of reaching our earth and manifesting themselves here and there just by mistake (since they don't want intervene or theories like that). But I do believe there are circumstances when, for whatever reason (leptons? quarks?) we can observe phenomenons that appear metaphysical yet will become eventually explainable. Energy transforms - not lost... First Bernoulli Law. Who says it must transform within our 4-dimensional experience? We can mathematically prove it doesn't these days.

 

[Axo1989]

To my surprise and delight, the Obama cut and run on aliens made NPR news this morning!?!

Also in The Guardian over here yesterday (and presumably in their UK and US editions as well). But I'm in the 'it was a joke, and now we are explaining the joke to the excitable' camp.

Edit: not the first time alien excitement has been whipped up from an Obama comment though, this one from 2021 has that mostly reliable news outlet (but not so much on this subject, it appears) generating some clickbait with the help of an unsavoury intermediary.

 

[kemmler3D]

I do concur with your assessment (FWIW, which, admittedly, ain't much) and... whilst treading on some topically thin ice (albeit quite gingerly) vis-a-vis the Rules here at ASR -- that notion aligns, at least to my way of thinking , rather nicely with the notion of a plausibly omniscient God.

An omniscient god may or may not be a logically consistent concept, I don't have enough training in formal logic or math to say one way or the other.

My POV was just wondering where the laws of physics come from, and if there is a multiverse, what are the constraints on what laws of physics may exist in other universes? I figured any physics that is logically consistent could exist, and if the ultimate constraint on existence is physical law, then anything that can happen, does happen - although not in our universe.

 

[pablolie]

An omniscient god may or may not be a logically consistent concept, I don't have enough training in formal logic or math to say one way or the other.

The concept of God is entirely out of any conversation based on what we call science, that is, scientific models. I do *believe* in metaphysics, but trying to claim they are provable is a silly exercise, in my opinion. I don't think my beliefs need to be true - their purpose is to provide *me* with a certain ethical compass. What I believe and what I know are very different things. And I also think very bad things can happen when the two are confused.

My POV was just wondering where the laws of physics come from

That part has an answer. It's the collection of models we have build as we observe them and try to peel the many onion layers as we micro-inch closer to "truth"... and try to exploit to our benefit in many ways.

, and if there is a multiverse, what are the constraints on what laws of physics may exist in other universes? I figured any physics that is logically consistent could exist, and if the constraint on existence is physical law, then anything that can happen, does happen - although not in our universe.

Why not in our universe? We have in no way stopped discovering new physical models for our very own Milky Way. We probably are not even up to 0.1% of true knowledge of our very own galaxy.

 

[kemmler3D]

That part has an answer. It's the collection of models we have build as we observe them and try to peel the many onion layers as we micro-inch closer to "truth"... and try to exploit to our benefit in many ways.

That's our where our mathematical models for reality come from. But whatever the actual true laws of physics / nature of reality are, where did they come from? My guess is they didn't "come from" anything, rather nothing stops them from existing. There is no information we have for what precedes or exists outside the universe.

Why not in our universe? We have in no way stopped discovering new physical models for our very own Milky Way.

I'm talking about universes that are radically different, for example where the speed of light is different, where it has no fixed value at all, or where light doesn't even exist conceptually. And everything in between ...

 

[mhardy6647]

That's our where our mathematical models for reality come from. But whatever the actual true laws of physics / nature of reality are, where did they come from? My guess is they didn't "come from" anything, rather nothing stops them from existing. There is no information we have for what precedes or exists outside the universe.

I'm talking about universes that are radically different, for example where the speed of light is different, where it has no fixed value at all, or where light doesn't even exist conceptually. And everything in between ...

or even - to quote one of the characters from Red Dwarf (probably Dave Lister, but it's been a long time ago and I am too lazy to dig around to check) - an alternate universe in which Ringo was a good drummer.

 

[pablolie]

... an alternate universe in which Ringo was a good drummer.

Ouch! :-D

 

[EJ3]

or even - to quote one of the characters from Red Dwarf (probably Dave Lister, but it's been a long time ago and I am too lazy to dig around to check) - an alternate universe in which Ringo was a good drummer.

There are those who believe he was a great drummer:

 

[Beave]

I always suspected that Ringo was an alien. Now we know.

 

[PierreV]

That is correct. EDIT: Assuming those other galaxies are receding from ours. I don't think that would be correct for the Andromeda galaxy, which is moving toward ours and expected to merge with the Milky Way, maybe in around 4.5 billion years or so.

We actually don't know. It's currently a coin toss. That notion came from 2 bodies orbital simulations in the past. The local group of galaxies is way more complex than previously assumed. n-bodies simulations paint a fuzzy picture. And, of course, all our predictions suffer from the limitations of 1) the small observation time window over a huge time scale 2) the uncertainties of our measurement 3) the nature and behavior of gravity (the local group is a fertile ground for alternative theories such as MOND testing) 4) the overall time scales (10 billions of years!) in which what happens in the Larniakea super cluster will also potentially matter.

No certainty of a Milky Way–Andromeda collision - Nature Astronomy

It is widely believed that the Milky Way is set to collide with Andromeda, its nearest neighbour. New calculations using data from Hubble and Gaia that account for the effects of other galaxies show an almost 50% chance of our Galaxy avoiding this fate.

www.nature.com

Laniakea Supercluster - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Petrushka]

UFO files to be declassified, except for the ones involving child porn.