All About UFO's

[WillBrink]

ooh, look, it knows how to google! Ok, just as you took 'Americans' as a stand in for 'most people' (don't deny it), I mean 'exceptional' for Western, what we used to call 'first world', countries.

Your rambling does not change the fact there was a specific US based context to the comment.

I did. Point remains.

Then your critical thinking and or reading comp is broken. Good luck out there.

 

[Taiga]

A frightening number of people support and give their money to people like this man. Perhaps they see phenomena in them that aren’t really there.

Jimmy Swaggart, US televangelist brought down by scandal, dies aged 90

Swaggart, who amassed huge following and millions of dollars, gave tearful apology after sex worker revelations

www.theguardian.com

 

[kemmler3D]

Yeah, I find it amazing how many Americans are seemingly religious, I find it surprising....I wonder if a good proportion of them secretly don't believe it. I mean there's a fair amount of crossover in terms of general "Western thinking" between Americans & Europeans, so I'm surprised they have this religious zeal in America.

My impression is that it's more of a social phenomenon than genuine considered belief for a lot of the US. You say you believe stuff to fit in. People who don't are ostracized. Belief in the sense of confidence in factual truth is not really in the equation.

 

[krabapple]

My impression is that it's more of a social phenomenon than genuine considered belief for a lot of the US. You say you believe stuff to fit in. People who don't are ostracized. Belief in the sense of confidence in factual truth is not really in the equation.

It's pretty to think so. But I'm convinced most American believers sincerely believe that angels, demons, gods exist. A big chunk of them sincerely believe a man named Jesus who lived two millenia ago was god's son, preached radical love, was murdered, and rose from the dead as part of a supernatural plan to redeem sinful humanity.

How 'considered' such beliefs are, is not particularly relevant. It's entirely possible to sincerely believe dubious things.

Which brings us back again to UFOs...and audio.

 

[somebodyelse]

Too small to get a decent sample size? That and religion is not popular there?

Could be the size - I think Malta's the smallest listed, and their population is a bit more than Iceland. If belief in huldafólk is anything to go by then religion might be exceptionally popular by European standards - and even if 'normal' for Europe it would be above China - so I don't think it can be popularity. I linked the article because the huldafólk thing is a bit of an outlier, and the Christian reinterpretation of them was to equate them with angels or demons.

 

[terryforsythe]

John Greenewald posted a video covering the Wall Street Journal UAP article. It is worth watching for anyone interested in the topic beyond just trolling. John was interviewed for the article, for hours, and provided to the author numerous official U.S. documents obtained under FOIA pertaining to the subject. The official documentation ran contrary to the author's narrative. Long story short, the author ignored all of it, apparently because it did not fit the narrative the author wanted to present.

As I previously stated, I found some of what the article discussed to be compelling, but also found issues with the lack of named sources and documentation to support the author's narrative. Nonetheless, having seen the official documents John presented to the author, and that those documents were not even mentioned in the article, I now consider the article just more biased junk clouding the UAP issue. The junk continues to come at us from both sides of the issue, which itself I find very interesting.

 

[Axo1989]

Your rambling does not change the fact there was a specific US based context to the comment.

Then your critical thinking and or reading comp is broken. Good luck out there.

Your drip-feed of YouTube slop into this thread certainly demonstrates an argument that the US bureaucracy, body-politic and military-industrial milieu (including the adjacent infotainment branch of breathless bros) encompasses a bevy of disingenuous and/or dim-witted grifters, loons and plodders.

This is relevant to the thread. A group of people deep into the UFO/UAP phenomena, some at the DOD, are convinced they are demonic. I'm not religious, but do not rule out such possibilities and it has some possible overlap with theories of Dr Vallee . BTW, that's one of the best channels on YT for all things big questions, be it physics, religion, etc, etc:

"Many theologians take angels and demons seriously. Why? Certainly, most human beings believe in angels and demons. Anecdotal cases are legion. Certainly, such nonphysical beings, in one form or another, populate most of the world’s religions. But angels and demons seem out of place, anachronistic, in our modern world. Is there anything here we should take seriously?Thomas Flint is a retired Professor of Philosophy at the University of Notre Dame, where he focuses on issues in philosophical theology and metaphysics."

You followed that here by presenting (and assigning some credibility to) a textbook illustration of begging the question: 'asking the question of what really exists ... perfectly plausible to think that it's not as if there would be nothing between human beings and god ... entirely reasonable to believe that god would create such things ... there doesn't seem to be any impossibility though to there being persons ... who don't have bodies'.

Leaving the theological elements to a different forum of course (and assuming we should even take it this far) let's simply consider using a foundational assumption of no scientific evidence, then posit 'logical' intermediaries (between real thing and non-evident thing) to then claim plausibility? Dickens could barely catalog that much begging, but it's a recipe for this thread.

As you've been casting stones, how is your own critical thinking and reading comprehension going?

 

[kemmler3D]

It's pretty to think so. But I'm convinced most American believers sincerely believe that angels, demons, gods exist. A big chunk of them sincerely believe a man named Jesus who lived two millenia ago was god's son, preached radical love, was murdered, and rose from the dead as part of a supernatural plan to redeem sinful humanity.

How 'considered' such beliefs are, is not particularly relevant. It's entirely possible to sincerely believe dubious things.

Which brings us back again to UFOs...and audio.

It's a big debate to be had here with not much data to back it up... But I'll just put my opinion like this. I think If people had really thought through these beliefs and took them seriously, they would behave very differently. So what does it mean to "believe" something you don't really think about or apparently take literally? For us evidence-driven types this mindset is hard to understand.

There are precious few Christians who conduct their affairs as if they thought the Bible were literally true, even though you can find a lot of people who will tell you they believe it is. I can only conclude that "belief" means different things to different people.

In the audio world the analogy is people who appear to understand how digital audio works but will still turn around and say "bits aren't bits" and science doesn't know that much about audio or hearing, and there must be some unknown thing driving heard differences. How can both be true? Doesn't compute for me but apparently it does for them.

 

[Audiofire]

The list of most religious countries is like the inverse of this list. Corruption Perceptions Index. Kinda like the countries that believe most in odd UFO stuff.

Corruption Perceptions Index 2024

The Corruption Perceptions Index 2024 ranks 180 countries by their perceived levels of public sector corruption. Find out the scores and read our analysis.

www.transparency.org

 

[sam_adams]

Unless we are going to discuss Ezekiel's Wheel in the context of UAPs; can we please dispense with any and all discussion of religion or religious beliefs? The reasons should be obvious.

THANK YOU FOR YOUR ATTENTION TO THIS MATTER.

 

[Robbo99999]

My impression is that it's more of a social phenomenon than genuine considered belief for a lot of the US. You say you believe stuff to fit in. People who don't are ostracized. Belief in the sense of confidence in factual truth is not really in the equation.

That's what I figured for a good proportion of them.

 

[Audiofire]

Herd mentality works in an inverse way for belief in UFO stuff. We don't have to bring religion into this. Replace deities with aliens and we are back in context. Hopefully, the debunkers are right about the crazies.

Q: Are you a member of any religious, spiritual, or fraternal organizations?

A: No, I am not. I am interested in "scientific spirituality" such as studies into the near-death phenomenon, and the role of consciousness in the formation and perception of reality, but there are no groups or organized practices that I am a member of. I just read books, have chats with people over coffee, and peruse New Scientist magazine. There are also no religions or organizations that I support or recommend that people join--these are very personal decisions that I leave up to the reader.

Q: As a result of writing The Gods of Eden, what is your prognosis for humanity's future?

A: Change is always possible, and the problems discussed in my book are capable of being solved: it is simply a question of if they will be solved. Since writing The Gods of Eden, I have read a little more of the UFO abduction literature. The evidence of a large-scale ET-human hybrid breeding program suggests that a big change, possibly an elimination-and-replacement scenario, is being planned for humanity's future. I recommend Dr. David Jacob's two books The Threat and Walking Among Us for a recent discussion of some of the possible implications.

Q: In light of what you have written and said in interviews, what can people do?

A: Pray that the debunkers are right, and that there is no alien presence on Earth. If the debunkers are wrong, then humanity may be facing a big challenge. The biggest obstacle to meeting that challenge is that too many people can be persuaded to do objectively harmful things in a sincere belief that they are doing good for the world. Keep exploring, communicating, and living a good life. Every person's thoughts and ideas are important, and together a solution becomes possible.

The Gods of Eden Q&A

An unauthorized PDF version of The Gods of Eden has been posted on the internet in violation of the copyright. This PDF is apparently a photocopy of the authorized Avon paperback edition and has...

williambramley.com

 

[WillBrink]

Herd mentality works in an inverse way for belief in UFO stuff. We don't have to bring religion into this.

If you follow the thread, you know how/why that happened. Various within the DOD, think they're demonic apparantly. Someone else decided to get overly pedantic about it and use that fact to troll. While I view it as unlikely (not being particularly religious...) it's worth noting in context of other vids, etc presented. There was no reason to go down the religious path as some did, some here to troll and be obtuse, vs have a discussion on UFOs/UAPs. Religion is always easy low hanging fruit to troll with. It also does not appear limited to the US DOD either:

"Nick Pope, a former UFO investigator for the Ministry of Defence, told us that he encountered the same sort of attitude when working in the UK.


‘I was aware that Pentagon pushback on UFO research was in part due to the religious belief of some of those involved,’ he said.


‘It was an odd irony that UFO investigations were being hampered because some people’s belief in God meant that they either didn’t believe in the existence of extraterrestrial life or that they regarded UFOs and extraterrestrials as demonic.


‘The fact that some people regard UFOs as demonic seems to have its roots in the biblical description of Satan as being ‘the prince of the power of the air’ from Ephesians 2:2."

 

[mhardy6647]

Are Americans 'most people' now?

'Most people' are kinda average, critical-thinking-wise.

Most people would be kinda the mode, statistical-descriptor-wise.

 

[Chester]

If you follow the thread, you know how/why that happened. Various within the DOD, think they're demonic apparantly. Someone else decided to get overly pedantic about it and use that fact to troll. While I view it as unlikely (not being particularly religious...) it's worth noting in context of other vids, etc presented. There was no reason to go down the religious path as some did, some here to troll and be obtuse, vs have a discussion on UFOs/UAPs. Religion is always easy low hanging fruit to troll with. It also does not appear limited to the US DOD either:

"Nick Pope, a former UFO investigator for the Ministry of Defence, told us that he encountered the same sort of attitude when working in the UK.


‘I was aware that Pentagon pushback on UFO research was in part due to the religious belief of some of those involved,’ he said.


‘It was an odd irony that UFO investigations were being hampered because some people’s belief in God meant that they either didn’t believe in the existence of extraterrestrial life or that they regarded UFOs and extraterrestrials as demonic.


‘The fact that some people regard UFOs as demonic seems to have its roots in the biblical description of Satan as being ‘the prince of the power of the air’ from Ephesians 2:2."

The problem is @WillBrink you only seem to want discussion to take place with people who have the same opinion as you. Anyone who has a differing opinion, you label as a troll or obtuse. It’s been the same throughout the whole thread.

On the religious point. I think if someone was religious but also in a position where they would be presented with hard evidence of the existence of UFOs, that’s more likely to make them question their own beliefs than just deny what they see in front of them. Just my opinion.

 

[kemmler3D]

On the religious point. I think if someone was religious but also in a position where they would be presented with hard evidence of the existence of UFOs, that’s more likely to make them question their own beliefs than just deny what they see in front of them. Just my opinion.

There is plenty short of UFOs that logically ought to provoke that kind of introspection that obviously doesn't. In the US religious belief is treated similarly to race or gender as a factor in discrimination, i.e. as an effectively inborn and immutable characteristic of a person. This tells you a lot about the relationship between this type of belief and observable reality.

 

[krabapple]

John Greenewald posted a video covering the Wall Street Journal UAP article. It is worth watching for anyone interested in the topic beyond just trolling. John was interviewed for the article, for hours, and provided to the author numerous official U.S. documents obtained under FOIA pertaining to the subject. The official documentation ran contrary to the author's narrative. Long story short, the author ignored all of it, apparently because it did not fit the narrative the author wanted to present.

As I previously stated, I found some of what the article discussed to be compelling, but also found issues with the lack of named sources and documentation to support the author's narrative. Nonetheless, having seen the official documents John presented to the author, and that those documents were not even mentioned in the article, I now consider the article just more biased junk clouding the UAP issue. The junk continues to come at us from both sides of the issue, which itself I find very interesting.

Well gosh, those are some pretty bold accusations, so now let's hear the journalist's side of it, no? Can you please scrape his rebuttal up from Youtube for us?

 

[krabapple]

It's a big debate to be had here with not much data to back it up... But I'll just put my opinion like this. I think If people had really thought through these beliefs and took them seriously, they would behave very differently. So what does it mean to "believe" something you don't really think about or apparently take literally? For us evidence-driven types this mindset is hard to understand.

Most beliefs simply aren't 'thought through'. Even when they are true. For example, the science that most people believe to be true, and actually is true, isn't something they've 'thought through'. They just accept that someone else has.

I don't know why you are holding people to such a standard. It strikes me as vastly unrealistic.

 

[terryforsythe]

Well gosh, those are some pretty bold accusations, so now let's hear the journalist's side of it, no?

If I come across a response by the journalist to John's allegations I will post it.

 

[kemmler3D]

Most beliefs simply aren't 'thought through'. Even when they are true. The science that most people believe to be true, and actually is true, isn't something they've 'thought through', for example. They just accept that someone else has.

I don't know why you are holding people to such a standard. It strikes me as vastly unrealistic.

No, it's a fair point, I haven't thought through everything I think is true either. It's not like I expect this to change. But if you say you strongly believe something such that it's almost central to your self image, it's a little surprising that one hasn't meaningfully engaged with whether it's *actually* true.

For example the Bible has a lot of admonitions against wealth, divorce, other stuff. But it's not hard to find people who are rich, divorced, and say they are fervent Christians.

To me this is a different level of conflict. It's not like me not sitting down and critically evaluating the latest study on caffeine consumption. It's saying you believe something, maybe really believing it in some sense, but acting as if you definitely don't.