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Alec Baldwin shooting: Lawyer suggests potential sabotage on ‘Rust’ set.

HiFidFan

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In an interesting turn, Baldwin now claims "I didn't pull the trigger"

"Well, the trigger wasn't pulled. I didn't pull the trigger," the actor told ABC television journalist George Stephanopoulos, according to an excerpt released on Wednesday of the interview, which is to be broadcast on Thursday.

"I would never point a gun at anyone and pull a trigger at them. Never,"


Sounds like his lawyers think that pulling the trigger adds a measure of culpability. Deny, deny, deny.
 

BDWoody

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Again this is an audio site,let keep it that way, this isn't Fox,MSNBC,CNN or any other mainstream or local news site,see there's alot of things going on in the world that I can talk about but this isn't the appropriate forum for me to talk about it.

Then don't.

No need to drop into a thread simply to tell others what they should or shouldn't do.

Members are given room to keep a topic from getting out of hand, and while these threads aren't my favorites, a taste of peoples' thoughts on life in general isn't automatically out of place.

If you feel a thread is inappropriate, report it.
 

MRC01

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In an interesting turn, Baldwin now claims "I didn't pull the trigger"

"Well, the trigger wasn't pulled. I didn't pull the trigger," the actor told ABC television journalist George Stephanopoulos, ...
It's only about the 1 millionth time somebody negligently discharged a firearm, then later claimed they didn't pull the trigger.
As someone with professional tactical and safety training in firearms, I feel it's important to state the obvious, guns don't fire all by themselves. Especially not revolvers which typically have double-action triggers requiring 10# - 15# of force.
 

Blumlein 88

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It's only about the 1 millionth time somebody negligently discharged a firearm, then later claimed they didn't pull the trigger.
As someone with professional tactical and safety training in firearms, I feel it's important to state the obvious, guns don't fire all by themselves. Especially not revolvers which typically have double-action triggers requiring 10# - 15# of force.
I would think the one used in that movie is a single action revolver. Meaning he would have to cock it and then pull the trigger. Or it would have been cocked prior to handing it to Baldwin.
 

MRC01

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That's possible. If so, the trigger pull would be much lighter. But it still doesn't fire all by itself.

A more honest and direct defense would be to claim that as an actor it was his job to point the firearm and pull the trigger as directed. It was the responsibility of the on-set armorer to ensure that the firearms are made safe.

Most gun savvy people know that whenever someone hands you a gun, the first thing you do is check its condition. If you don't know how to do that, you don't accept or touch the gun. And you follow Cooper's rules. But movie sets require violating Cooper's rules, so they have their own unique rules and professional armorers responsible for safety, all of which I am not familiar with, not having worked on a movie set, so it's unfair for me to judge. My criticism is not of what happened, only his pathetic "I didn't pull the trigger" defense/statement/lie.
 

Blumlein 88

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That's possible. If so, the trigger pull would be much lighter. But it still doesn't fire all by itself.

A more honest and direct defense would be to claim that as an actor it was his job to point the firearm and pull the trigger as directed. It was the responsibility of the on-set armorer to ensure that the firearms are made safe.

Most gun savvy people know that whenever someone hands you a gun, the first thing you do is check its condition. If you don't know how to do that, you don't accept or touch the gun. And you follow Cooper's rules. But movie sets require violating Cooper's rules, so they have their own unique rules and professional armorers responsible for safety, all of which I am not familiar with, not having worked on a movie set, so it's unfair for me to judge. My criticism is not of what happened, only his pathetic "I didn't pull the trigger" defense/statement/lie.
I agree, whether he pulled the trigger or ham handedly bumped the trigger he pulled the trigger. If the firearms was defective with a worn mechanism that could more or less release all on its on, maybe he has a point. It sure looks and sounds more like his attorney told him to quit admitting he fired the gun of his own volition.

It all sounds like possibly more than one party was deficient in their duties, but most specifically the armourer wasn't up to snuff.

The revolver was a reproduction of a Colt Single Action Army revolver in 45 long colt made by Pietta.
 

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I can imagine what his lawyers think about him giving interviews and making statements to the press.
 

JJB70

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I think there is a lot of schadenfreude about Alex Baldwin, which although I can't really commend I can understand given his history and the way he has been so preachy about others. That has nothing to do with this case but I think it explains why some are really going for him. Personally I think we should let the courts handle it and leave it to legal process.
 

dmac6419

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I think there is a lot of schadenfreude about Alex Baldwin, which although I can't really commend I can understand given his history and the way he has been so preachy about others. That has nothing to do with this case but I think it explains why some are really going for him. Personally I think we should let the courts handle it and leave it to legal process.
Uh uh it's a Qnon/Fox talking point that's what it really is.
 

BDWoody

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Uh uh it's a Qnon/Fox talking point that's what it really is.

What isn't going to happen is for one person to derail an otherwise civil thread.
That's a thread ban.
 

j^j=e^-pi/2

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I have no experience with revolvers SA or DA. Just the usual modern pistols and sporting rifles, etc.

Question, could you partially pull back the hammer on the revolver just before it locks and then release it and make the gun fire? That way, he would be telling the truth... he didn't pull the trigger.

I'm not changing my opinion on the matter. It doesn't matter if you are an actor, a CEO, an engineer or an artist.... this does not negate the final responsibility... it lies with the person handling the firearm.
 

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I have no experience with revolvers SA or DA. Just the usual modern pistols and sporting rifles, etc.

Question, could you partially pull back the hammer on the revolver just before it locks and then release it and make the gun fire? That way, he would be telling the truth... he didn't pull the trigger.

I'm not changing my opinion on the matter. It doesn't matter if you are an actor, a CEO, an engineer or an artist.... this does not negate the final responsibility... it lies with the person handling the firearm.

Yes, especially in a Single Action Army revolver. As a result, some would load only 5 rounds into the 6 round cylinder.
 
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MRC01

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...
Question, could you partially pull back the hammer on the revolver just before it locks and then release it and make the gun fire? That way, he would be telling the truth... he didn't pull the trigger.
...
You mean he didn't pull the trigger, he flipped the hammer? It's possible yet not certain. If you pull the hammer back only partially then release it, it might fire, or it might have a light strike which isn't strong enough to trigger the primer and fire. Even if so, it's a distinction without a difference as no matter how exactly it happened, he made the gun fire.

With some revolvers, when the hammer is at rest over a loaded chamber, it is in physical contact with the primer. This can make the gun fire if the hammer is struck from behind, even when at rest. This is one reason to load only 5 rounds in a 6 round revolver, keeping an empty chamber under the hammer. However, most modern revolvers are not like this; they are designed for daily carry and are drop safe with double action triggers; you can load 6 rounds safely without fear or risk of accidental discharge.

Movies scenes are inconsistent. I've seen guns that need to be cocked, than aren't. And guns that don't need to be cocked, that are. Actors often have their fingers on the trigger when they should not. So the negligent discharge theory is plausible and likely. Of course, that doesn't mean it's what happened. They have professionals investigating this, it's not their first rodeo, so I'm inclined to trust the process, truth will out.
 

Duke

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Question, could you partially pull back the hammer on the revolver just before it locks and then release it and make the gun fire?
In that situation, normally the half-cock notch in the hammer would catch the hammer and prevent the firing pin from striking the primer (as long as the trigger is not already being pressed). However in practice half-cock notches are not 100% reliable in that situation, and in my experience they are more prone to wear than most other parts of the firing mechanism.

On a single-action revolver the half-cock position is where the hammer is locked partway back, and cannot be dropped by pulling the trigger. The half-cocked hammer position gets the hammer out of the way of the cylinder, and unlocks the cylinder, so that it can be easily rotated by hand. The half-cocked condition is used when you load and unload the cylinder, as the cylinder does not swing out on most single-action revolvers. In the half-cocked position the cylinder is easily rotated by hand and the cartridges can be inserted or removed one at a time to load or unload the firearm.

In order to return the half-cocked hammer to the normal hammer-down condition, the hammer is carefully thumbed back a bit beyond the half-cock position, then with the thumb STILL preventing the hammer from falling, the trigger is pressed, and the thumb EASES the hammer down. DURING THIS ENTIRE OPERATION THE FIREARM SHOULD BE POINTED IN THE SAFEST POSSIBLE DIRECTION, like maybe at the ground a few feet in front of the person handling it. Lowering the hammer on an empty chamber is standard practice to prevent an accidental discharge from your thumb slipping off the hammer when lowering it with a single-action revolver.

My understanding is that single-action revolvers have a considerably higher incidence of accidental discharge than either double-action or semi-automatic actions. The above is probably one reason for that. Another is idiots attempting a "quick draw" who have their finger on the trigger too early in the drawing cycle, such that the trigger is already pressed by the time they finish cocking the weapon, so it fires the instant their thumb comes off the hammer.

At least that's my recollection of single-action revolver operation. It's been a while.

And just for the heck of it, here's the version of The Rules of Firearms Handling that I was taught starting at age five:

1. Every gun is loaded until you KNOW otherwise. (Question: Is that gun loaded? If you don't KNOW, then the correct answer is "YES".)
2. Keep your gun always pointed in the safest possible direction.
3. Finger off the trigger until you are ready to shoot (and outside the trigger guard when handling the firearm).
4. Always be sure of your target and backstop (whatever is behind your target).

I don't know the modified protocols for filming a scene with firearms but obviously they were not followed. Presumably Rule #1 would become something like this: Every gun is loaded with LIVE ammunition until you KNOW otherwise.

* * *

Not that it's necessarily applicable here, but just in case this is of any use to anybody: One of the most common scenarios for an accidental discharge is the "gun topic BS session with friends". You are with some buddies and the conversation turns to pistols and someone decides to show theirs. They remove the magazine and clear the chamber and show everybody that it's safe, everybody now knows it's safe, and you and your buddies handle it and admire the way it feels and (hopefully asking permission first) dry-fire it and nod approvingly at the nice smooth crisp trigger. Then the owner reloads the pistol but doen't put it away just yet (which he should have done IMMEDIATELY) and the BS session continues, perhaps drifting to other topics. Eventually somebody forgets that the pistol is now NOT SAFE and picks it up to appreciate that nice trigger action one more time and... let's just hope they had it pointed in the safest possible direction. So be maximum-alert perpetually vigilant if you are ever involved in a gun topic BS session where a firearm is handled. You may be the only one really paying attention.
 
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MRC01

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In that situation, normally the half-cock notch in the hammer would catch the hammer and prevent the firing pin from striking the primer (as long as the trigger is not already being pressed). However in practice half-cock notches are not 100% reliable, and in my experience are more prone to wear than most other parts of the firing mechanism.
...
In order to return the half-cocked hammer to the normal hammer-down condition, the hammer is carefully thumbed back a bit beyond the half-cock position, then with the thumb STILL preventing the hammer from falling, the trigger is pressed, and the thumb EASES the hammer down. DURING THIS ENTIRE OPERATION THE FIREARM SHOULD BE POINTED IN THE SAFEST POSSIBLE DIRECTION, like maybe at the ground a few feet in front of the person handling it.
This is accurate, and not only for revolvers, but also some vintage semi-autos have a half-cock like this, including the 1911 government model .45.
 

Blumlein 88

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Though not pertinent to what happened in this accidental shooting, you can fire an SAA by fanning the hammer. You have to hold the trigger and with your opposite hand brush back the hammer and let it fall. Done well you can fire multiple shots much faster. To my knowledge this was never actually a thing in the old west, but something developed for movies in the 20th century. Plus most people who do this can't hit anything except by accident. The technique can be refined and one of the more famous is Bob Munden an exhibition shooter. Among other records he has shot 5 balloons at distance with them spaced 8 feet apart by firing 5 shots in 1.06 seconds.

Thumbing is something some old West "gunfighters" may have used. One variation is to tie the trigger back in pulled position with a strip of leather. Then you can draw it and use your thumb to brush back the hammer and release off your thumb for a quicker first shot. It is easier to learn to be reasonably accurate with this method.

In terms of this accidental shooting, I would hope no one handed Mr. Baldwin an SAA with the hammer already back. But who knows other than those there. It isn't very credible that it fired on its own.
 

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This is accurate, and not only for revolvers, but also some vintage semi-autos have a half-cock like this, including the 1911 government model .45.
There are small concealed semi auto pistols being sold in high volumes that don't have a means of de-cocking once you slide a round into the chamber. I was dumb struck when I asked about this at gun shop. Once you chamber a round the gun only needs a light trigger pull to fire and there is no way to make it a heavy pull 2 stage trigger. I'm guessing these are the guns kids find and too easily discharge
 

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In an interesting turn, Baldwin now claims "I didn't pull the trigger"

"Well, the trigger wasn't pulled. I didn't pull the trigger," the actor told ABC television journalist George Stephanopoulos, according to an excerpt released on Wednesday of the interview, which is to be broadcast on Thursday.

"I would never point a gun at anyone and pull a trigger at them. Never,"


Sounds like his lawyers think that pulling the trigger adds a measure of culpability. Deny, deny, deny.
Well, Media is not a court, so he can say whatever he wants... Let have the evidence point towards what happened here. There must have been multiple cameras rolling, so there is bound to be video evidence of what happened. Not to mention a fair amount of eyewitnesses.

It is curious how little actual information has been released about the whole thing.
 

Blumlein 88

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Well, Media is not a court, so he can say whatever he wants... Let have the evidence point towards what happened here. There must have been multiple cameras rolling, so there is bound to be video evidence of what happened. Not to mention a fair amount of eyewitnesses.

It is curious how little actual information has been released about the whole thing.
I seem to recall as it was something of a rehearsal, and not even a dress rehearsal, that they actually weren't recording at the time of the incident according to earlier statements.
 

RayDunzl

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The law is (or should be) objective.

I see Law as completely subjective.

We make it up as we go along, then have somebody apply their opinion as to whether there was a transgression or not.
 
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