Alec Baldwin shooting: Lawyer suggests potential sabotage on ‘Rust’ set.

[Gorgonzola]

I guess my issue with Baldwin's case is that he did hire an armorer. That must have cost $200K+ seeing how she had to be on site and such. All she had to do was make sure the gun was safe. Surely, no matter how inexperienced, from a hiring person's point of view, he did what he needed to safeguard against a live bullet being in the gun. No? I mean even an ordinary citizen with some gun knowledge would be able to assure said gun was safe to hand the Baldwin.

On top of that, didn't someone else shout that the gun was cold? If so, then Baldwin had more than one reason to think the gun was safe.

Clearly he had no intention of shooting or killing anyone. So the question is only one of negligence.

The other angle on this is all the money that is going to be wasted representing and prosecuting him. Surely that money could be put to much better use than a trial on a marginal case like this. I would think he will eat through $1M to $2M without trying hard. Let's use that money for some other cause that will do some good.

The standard rule of gun handling, (as I and others have mentioned), is to NEVER assume a gun is "cold" regardless of who hands it to you.

Further, Baldwin apparently broke additional rules of gun handling: (i) he didn't point the gun in a safe direction, (ii) he put his finger on the trigger without the immediate intention of firing. And then certainly he pulled the trigger -- his claim that he didn't is not believable prima facie.

In criminal terms the line between criminal negligence and involuntary manslaughter is too fine for me to call as a non-lawyer, but I lean to the latter. As for civil liability, I'd guess the tab will be pretty high for Baldwin.

 

[Blumlein 88]

The standard rule of gun handling, (as I and others have mentioned), is to NEVER assume a gun is "cold" regardless of who hands it to you.

Further, Baldwin apparently broke additional rules of gun handling: (i) he didn't point the gun in a safe direction, (ii) he put his finger on the trigger without the immediate intention of firing. And then certainly he pulled the trigger -- his claim that he didn't is not believable prima facie.

In criminal terms the line between criminal negligence and involuntary manslaughter is too fine for me to call as a non-lawyer, but I lean to the latter. As for civil liability, I'd guess the tab will be pretty high for Baldwin.

Yes, those are standard rules. But not standard practice on movie sets. Several people in the industry have explained the actor does not check the firearm handed to them as cold.

 

[Blumlein 88]

I don't know this to be necessarily true for all dummy cartridges. I pretty sure it is not true for blanks (-- the difference between dummies and blanks has already been mentioned).

A blank round is crimped or has a polymer tip and will fire creating a muzzle flash.

A dummy round as used by movies is to look real when you see them like in revolvers. They do not fire. They are said by those in the industry to have a dimpled primer which is not really a primer. And to be empty of powder. To make it clear they also have a BB inside so you can shake it to confirm there is no powder inside. That is what was supposed to be used in the Baldwin case.

Dummy rounds as used elsewhere will have a polymer tip and a polymer plug in place of the primer usually in very bright colors. They would not use this in movies because it would be seen as not a real round.

This article by someone who works in movies describes all this. At least this person, says he fires thru all the dummy rounds to see they do not fire while the assistant director watches and this is done again when he hands it to the actors. It is pointed at the floor.

I work with firearms on movie sets. There are multiple steps in place to avoid accidents.

There are so many levels of gun safety measures on movie sets. That's what makes the fatal shooting on 'Rust' so incredibly rare and even more tragic.

www.usatoday.com

Another movie armorer for movies describes the same dummy rounds with a BB inside.

Guns, Ammo, Accountability: Hollywood Munitions Experts Grapple With ‘Rust’ Tragedy

Questions swirl about on-set gun safety and who could be at fault after Alec Baldwin discharged a prop gun loaded with live rounds, killing cinematographer Halyna Hutchins and injuring director Joel Souza.

www.hollywoodreporter.com

 

[sarumbear]

…I'm a strong believer that you never, ever, ever, trust a gun. In my mind it doesn't matter if your expert spouse or your combat veteran father hands it to you and tells you it's safe. You check it for proper loading, operation, and the safety setting for semi-automatics….

Especially when 31% of all households in the U.S. have firearms, and 22% of American adults personally own one or more firearms, one expects checking the gun you are going to aim a human being and pull the trigger is second nature. Isn’t killing someone due to negligence called an involuntary manslaughter?

 

[dasdoing]

This conversation reminds me of a discussion I had with a Star Trek fan years ago. I'm not a Trekie at all, but I have seen some episodes of a couple series. I know someone who is a Trekie, an enthusiastic fan, and he had a replica phaser handgun. I was taken aback that an adult, an engineer too, could feel that way about a science fiction show, to the point of owning a toy prop. Out of courtesy when he showed me the phaser I examined it, and noticed the switch controlling the "stun" setting. Imagine a weapon, even in the hands of police officers, where the difference between the equivalent of tasing someone or vaporizing them is a simple switch setting. In the US, I can only imagine the law suits.

lol. never thought about the switch this way. you are totally right.

Clearly he had no intention of shooting or killing anyone.

he is not charged for intented shooting/killing

And as someone who is not an armorer or an expert on hollywood film making, this is baffling. PROP guns should be what my brain thinks of when it hears PROP GUNS. Unable to be fired. PERIOD. End of story. There is no reason to be using real firearms on set in 2023.

can you imagine this happening in Germany for example? americans have a totally sick fetich with guns.

 

[BDWoody]

can you imagine this happening in Germany for example? americans have a totally sick fetich with guns.

Let's not go down this road please.

 

[jkasch]

The talking heads I watched the other day agreed that negligence resulting in a death = involuntary manslaughter in New Mexico.

 

[blueone]

Especially when 31% of all households in the U.S. have firearms, and 22% of American adults personally own one or more firearms, one expects checking the gun you are going to aim a human being and pull the trigger is second nature. Isn’t killing someone due to negligence called an involuntary manslaughter?

Generally, yes, but in the US criminal laws vary widely at the state level. Personally, I think our criminal justice system is an illogical convoluted mess, being different between states, and different from the federal level. I'm not an attorney, but I'm married to one, and sometimes the explanations I get about how our legal system works makes my eyes roll.

 

[Blumlein 88]

can you imagine this happening in Germany for example?

Cannot find it again, but back after this happened there was an interview with a German film armorer. He indicated a considerable number of TV shows and some movies filmed in Germany didn't hire or have on site a qualified armorer. They just sort of handled it themselves. He indicated there were too many accidents and he was frankly surprised no one has been killed yet. He was hopeful after the Baldwin accident that would change. Indicated that he already saw more requests by people in German film asking for armorers for their filming. That safety upgrades were needed badly in the German film and TV industry. I would guess the amount of work in Germany is dwarfed by the number of such things by US companies in the USA.

 

[Alice of Old Vincennes]

Especially when 31% of all households in the U.S. have firearms, and 22% of American adults personally own one or more firearms, one expects checking the gun you are going to aim a human being and pull the trigger is second nature. Isn’t killing someone due to negligence called an involuntary manslaughter?

Jails would be full. Many deaths are caused by negligence. Very, very few rise to criminal culpability.

 

[Alice of Old Vincennes]

Generally, yes, but in the US criminal laws vary widely at the state level. Personally, I think our criminal justice system is an illogical convoluted mess, being different between states, and different from the federal level. I'm not an attorney, but I'm married to one, and sometimes the explanations I get about how our legal system works makes my eyes roll.

Thank goodness states are different from feds. The federal criminal justice system is barbaric.

 

[Ron Party]

Hmmm.... Criminal negligence beyond a reasonable doubt? No two reasonable people could disagree? Tough case.

 

[KellenVancouver]

 

[dasdoing]

I wont even get close

 

[Moderate Dionysianism]

surely the place to be when he's holding a gun

 

[Sonny1]

Hopefully far behind him.

 

[pseudoid]

Hopefully far behind him.

Now that we know who shot the sheriff: I demand an investigation into who shot the deputy, which has never been determined.

 

[JSmith]

The weapons supervisor on the film set where Alec Baldwin shot and killed a cinematographer has been accused of drinking and smoking marijuana by prosecutors, accusing her of being likely hungover when she loaded a live bullet into the revolver that the actor used.

Prosecutors accuse Rust weapons expert in Alec Baldwin case of drinking, smoking marijuana

Prosecutors allege the weapons expert who loaded the revolver used on the movie Rust, which resulted in a death, was likely hungover at the time.

www.abc.net.au

JSmith

 

[JSmith]

Rust shooting: what a new indictment will mean for Alec Baldwin

Star could face up to 18 months in prison for the shooting death of cinematographer Halyna Hutchins three years ago

www.theguardian.com

Legal experts are weighing in on actor Alec Baldwin’s potential defense strategies after charges of involuntary manslaughter were refiled against the 65-year-old actor by a New Mexico grand jury in connection to the fatal shooting of cinematographer Halyna Hutchins during a scene rehearsal on the set of Rust three years ago.

The charges against Baldwin, the lead actor and a co-producer of the ill-fated western, were dropped last April after “new facts” surfaced requiring further forensic analysis of the Italian-made “facsimile” of a Colt 1873 single-action revolver used in the shooting.

The new indictment – on similar charges that carry up to 18 months in prison if convicted – alleges that Baldwin caused Hutchins’ death either by negligence or “total disregard or indifference” for safety.

JSmith

 

[Alice of Old Vincennes]

Conviction is unlikely. Plausible defenses.