AKM vs ESS

[dwstudeman]

Unless the different DACs have the same analog output stage and the same power supply, you are not really comparing DAC chips. These days, some DACs are made from FPGAs and are superior to any off-the-shelf chip, allowing their characteristics to be changed with firmware. Many Chord devices use an FPGA with very painstakingly designed firmware. This is by no means a low-cost solution.

 

[levimax]

These days, some DACs are made from FPGAs and are superior to any off-the-shelf chip, allowing their characteristics to be changed with firmware. Many Chord devices use an FPGA with very painstakingly designed firmware. This is by no means a low-cost solution.

Chord DAC's with their expensive and complicated FPGA solutions have been tested by @amirm and they perform very well..... but not better than a well executed design using "off the shelf" chips as you call them. What "characteristics" would you want to change with an FPGA solution since the off the shelf chips are at this point virtually noise and distortion free with flat frequency response?

 

[dumbsuck]

My purely subjective opinion that is likely not based in fact and exists only in my head is that to me, ESS sounds better with more realistic treble and more detail/bite in high frequencies while AKM is too smooth up there, too mellow. Judging based on my experience with EMU 0404 USB (AKM), Shanling UA3 (AKM), Topping D10s (ESS) and the original ODAC from JDS Labs (ESS). Please excuse my audiophoolish post.

 

[voodooless]

These days, some DACs are made from FPGAs and are superior to any off-the-shelf chip, allowing their characteristics to be changed with firmware.

Superior in what way? What characteristics need changing?

 

[dwstudeman]

Chord DAC's with their expensive and complicated FPGA solutions have been tested by @amirm and they perform very well..... but not better than a well executed design using "off the shelf" chips as you call them. What "characteristics" would you want

Whatever characteristics the people designing the firmware want to have, they all have different reasons.

 

[raif71]

Simply superior in Watts way if you're talking about Chord products. Using fpga technology, WTA filter, pulse array technology and digital signal processing can also be done.

 

[solderdude]

Superior in what way? What characteristics need changing?

For one thing no other manufacturer has that 'near perfect' reconstruction filters.
You can give them credit for that...

That said... on other fronts than filter linearity/ripple/steepness (-350dB story) these DACs are not better than your average DS design.
Alas there is no objective proof for that being an audible issue (unless we take Rob W's word for it) but it is good engineering.

I remember Cameron showing off he could AB different (perfect and good) filters and made the 'bridge' to 'the sound of DACs being audible.
He got flak for it and we were promised a witnessed blind test between DACs ... but somehow never happened.

Whatever characteristics the people designing the firmware want to have, they all have different reasons.

So there are different firmware versions for Chord DACs for different reasons of firmware designers ?
There are no limits to the capabilities of programmable logic ?

 

[voodooless]

Whatever characteristics the people designing the firmware want to have, they all have different reasons.

Like what?

 

[VientoB]

Unless the different DACs have the same analog output stage and the same power supply, you are not really comparing DAC chips. These days, some DACs are made from FPGAs and are superior to any off-the-shelf chip, allowing their characteristics to be changed with firmware. Many Chord devices use an FPGA with very painstakingly designed firmware. This is by no means a low-cost solution.

What a load of nonsense.

 

[rcstevensonaz]

What a load of nonsense.

Just for clarity, can you provide a bit more insight on what is the "load of nonsense"? Your quote included several different claims in your response... are all of these nonsense or just a few of them?

1. Unless the different DACs have the same analog output stage and the same power supply, you are not really comparing DAC chips.
2. These days, some DACs are made from FPGAs and are superior to any off-the-shelf chip
3. [FPGA DACs] allow their characteristics to be changed with firmware.
4. Many Chord devices use an FPGA with very painstakingly designed firmware.
5. [Chord's FPGA approach] is by no means a low-cost solution.

 

[oleg87]

Well I didn't make the above post but I would challenge claim 2 - which DACs? Superior by what metrics? For lack of a better way to gauge this, Amir's DAC SINAD rankings are dominated by off-the-shelf ICs.
An FPGA isn't magic, it's just a way to implement custom digital logic without a custom ASIC. High performance conversion is, ultimately, mostly an analog design problem. Can't change that with firmware.

 

[voodooless]

Claim 1 is also silly. Different chips need different circuits to make them perform optimally. The same goes for the power supplies that they need.

 

[VientoB]

Just for clarity, can you provide a bit more insight on what is the "load of nonsense"? Your quote included several different claims in your response... are all of these nonsense or just a few of them?

1. Unless the different DACs have the same analog output stage and the same power supply, you are not really comparing DAC chips.
2. These days, some DACs are made from FPGAs and are superior to any off-the-shelf chip
3. [FPGA DACs] allow their characteristics to be changed with firmware.
4. Many Chord devices use an FPGA with very painstakingly designed firmware.
5. [Chord's FPGA approach] is by no means a low-cost solution.

1. The analogue output stage is really not audibly affecting the sound - look at the DAC measurements here. SINAD -120db so what effect is the analogue output stage having here? Not a whole lot!

2. What evidence do you have for that???

3-5 - You seem to have believed everything Rob Watts has told you. Amir has tested Chord DACs and they didn't measure as well as the best chip DAC implementations.

I stand by my statement that your post was a load of nonsense. You didn't evidence any of it.

 

[Kiko1974]

1. The analogue output stage is really not audibly affecting the sound - look at the DAC measurements here. SINAD -120db so what effect is the analogue output stage having here? Not a whole lot!

2. What evidence do you have for that???

3-5 - You seem to have believed everything Rob Watts has told you. Amir has tested Chord DACs and they didn't measure as well as the best chip DAC implementations.

I stand by my statement that your post was a load of nonsense. You didn't evidence any of it.

I don't agree with some of your statements:
1-Both power supply and output analogue stages DO have an impact on sound quality WITH THE SAME D/A CHIPSET. Example, as I've owned both, SMSL's DO 300 EX and D 400 PRO. They both feature the same AKM 4191+AK4499 EX chipset, yet they sound different. The D400 PRO features two power supplies, the DO300 EX only one, and the analogue stage of the D400 PRO has a higher quality, more elaborate analogue stage. Which one sounds better? The D400 PRO.
As I said, I've owned both, first the DO300 EX, and I swapped It for the D400 PRO, which still stays on my HI Fi system.

 

[voodooless]

yet they sound different.

As @VientoB already asked:

What evidence do you have for that???

I'm sure you never did any controlled tests, never mind single or double blind.

 

[Purité Audio]

1. The analogue output stage is really not audibly affecting the sound - look at the DAC measurements here. SINAD -120db so what effect is the analogue output stage having here? Not a whole lot!

2. What evidence do you have for that???

3-5 - You seem to have believed everything Rob Watts has told you. Amir has tested Chord DACs and they didn't measure as well as the best chip DAC implementations.

I stand by my statement that your post was a load of nonsense. You didn't evidence any of it.

Rob does have fantastic hearing!
Keith

 

[Kiko1974]

As @VientoB already asked:


I'm sure you never did any controlled tests, never mind single or double blind.

As a Matter of fact, I did.

 

[JSmith]

DO 300 EX and D 400 PRO

Sound different?

DO300EX

Foshan ShuangMuSanLin electronics Co., LTD. founded in 2009 which located in Shenzhen, China. And our branch company VMV Technology(HK) Company Limited registered in HK in 2013. Our company is specialized in the audio DAC, stereo headphone amplifier, power amplifier, and with own R&D...

www.smsl-audio.com

SMSL D400 Pro Balanced DAC Review

This is a review and detailed measurements of the SMSL D400 Pro balanced stereo DAC with Bluetooth support. It was sent to me by the company and costs US $619. The scalloped front together with the high resolution and bright display make this one of the most beautiful products SMSL has...

www.audiosciencereview.com

JSmith

 

[voodooless]

As a Matter of fact, I did.

Uhuh… care to share the results and methods?

 

[Roland68]

I don't agree with some of your statements:
1-Both power supply and output analogue stages DO have an impact on sound quality WITH THE SAME D/A CHIPSET. Example, as I've owned both, SMSL's DO 300 EX and D 400 PRO. They both feature the same AKM 4191+AK4499 EX chipset, yet they sound different. The D400 PRO features two power supplies, the DO300 EX only one, and the analogue stage of the D400 PRO has a higher quality, more elaborate analogue stage. Which one sounds better? The D400 PRO.
As I said, I've owned both, first the DO300 EX, and I swapped It for the D400 PRO, which still stays on my HI Fi system.

The thing about the power supplies is wrong, and repeating it doesn't make it any truer.
The D400 Pro has two +12V power supplies, which generate the +/-12V voltage. The +12V also generates the +5V for the digital section.
In this configuration, the filtered +12V output of one of the power supplies is pulled to ground, while the unfiltered ground output of the power supply delivers the -12V. This isn't ideal, but it has no practical effect.

The DO300EX has a +/-12V power supply, with 30% higher power and load capacity. That's one +12V and one -12V power supplies in one housing; it makes no difference.
Here, too, the +5V for the digital section is generated from the +12V.

The output stage is also not very different. The fundamental difference is that the D400 Pro has film capacitors in the signal path, while the DO300EX has Muse electrolytic capacitors. We've known for a long time that this doesn't make any difference or impact on the sound, even in practice.

Didn't you write back then that you returned the DO300EX and only received the DO300EX afterwards?

As already mentioned, we compared the DO300EX and the D400 Pro in a blind test with several DACs, extensively and with absolutely accurate levels. Of the five experienced people present, none could tell the difference between the two DACs.

I still own the D400 EX with two AK4499EXs. Here, too, there is no audible difference in sound, even though the D400 EX has slightly better measured values than the D400 Pro.