The original also had the Trunote feature which I think they dropped for the M2 - personalised frequency response calibration for your specific ears via playing back and recording a sine sweep while wearing them. Would be very interesting to see how that measures with/without Trunote engaged on a test rig.
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AKG N700nc m2 Measurements
- Thread starter amirm
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IMO these are worth a listen.
My experience with them (or possibly their previous model) was they sounded superior to both the Bose QC35s and Sony XM4s out of the box, their noise cancellation was good enough to be forgiven as a "premium" product due to the much lower price compared to those competitors, the equalizer in the app is wonky but powerful, and they had pretty good pairing stability and battery life.
I didn't keep them because the headband and earcups would become sweaty quickly on me in my work environments and they were a little small for my ears. Otherwise these have a lot going for them.
My experience with them (or possibly their previous model) was they sounded superior to both the Bose QC35s and Sony XM4s out of the box, their noise cancellation was good enough to be forgiven as a "premium" product due to the much lower price compared to those competitors, the equalizer in the app is wonky but powerful, and they had pretty good pairing stability and battery life.
I didn't keep them because the headband and earcups would become sweaty quickly on me in my work environments and they were a little small for my ears. Otherwise these have a lot going for them.
I’ve seen statements like this here as well as on other Bluetooth headsets like the Bose nc700. I have a hard time understanding how this works. Do the headphones use an ADC to put the voltage back in the digital domain, then apply DSP and output the result with its built-in DAC? Or is DSP being used as shorthand for active amplified alteration of signal?
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I didn't think this through enough. It all goes through the same DAC, so it's essentially a wifi vs. ethernet situation. Only in this case the BT codec in the headphones might not be fully lossless. In that case, wired would actually give the best representation of the capabilities of the headphones themselves. If the BT codec is the latest lossless version, the results would be the same, so wired is easier to run through the test procedure. Either way, wired testing should be accurate. I think I got it. Sorry for the diversion.
BTW, when I see the >200 headphones tested in the ASR database, are the BT models identified somehow? I think ASR has tested a few, but there is no specific category. Perusal of model names don't show any 'BT' models. When I query 'bluetooth' or 'wireless' nothing shows up. I'll admit my database search skills are weak.
BTW, thanks for the response. Love the site.
That would be useful just to totally confirm that they measure the same in wireless and wired mode. You'll probably need to do a number of measurements (5 to 10 perhaps) with a reseat of the headphone on the rig between each measurement (I'd just try to place the headphone roughly centrally each time), and then take an average of the spread in order to compare wireless vs wired, as this will remove the variable of variability that you get with each reseat, and will allow a more accurate comparison - especially as this headphone is quite erratic between reseats according to Amir's measurement experience. And as you rightly say, miniDSP EARS is totally valid for that kind of work.
EDIT: the other option, and praps easier option is to just leave the headphone on the rig if you can switch between wireless and wired mode without moving the headphone on the rig at all - that way you're removing the variable of placement position even more, in which case you wouldn't need to do lots of measurements and average them. But you'd have to be sure you don't disturb the headphone at all when switching between wired & wireless, and you might want to reconfirm by measuring wired again (after measuring wired & wireless) to see that it hadn't changed (to confirm you hadn't moved it when switching between wired & wireless). This method is potentially more accurate than the method I was describing in my first paragraph, whilst also being quicker & easier.
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thewas
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Because I have a quite high opinion of your judgement I had a look at some more objective data and have to revise, both channel matching and comfort are quite good and better than from many other Harman headphones:
AKG N700NC M2 Review
The AKG N700NC M2 Wireless are the next generation of the AKG N700NC Wireless. They have an adaptive active noise cancelling (ANC) system that automatically adju...
www.rtings.com
AKG N700NC M2 – In-Ear Fidelity
crinacle.com
Actually many other well received headphones have a dip there e.g. HifiMan models, and...the Sennheiser HE-1
This dip pushes back instruments/voices with these frequencies in the mix and can create a sense of more spaciousness (particularly depth), as people like @jhaider found with the N700 M2.In the case of the N700NC M2, it depends whether it is "on" or "off":
- Wired + Off = no BT, no DSP (equivalent to a regular wired HP)
- Wired + On = no BT, DSP active (ANC, ambient/talk-thru button, but no EQ). White led (blue led when BT is connected).
The USB-C is only for charging. Connecting the cable turns off everything: BT, DSP, wired connection. There is no way to listen to anything when charging.
That whole "logic" is very similar on the Mark Levinson 5909 (which makes me think the two are probably related...), with a few differences: the 5909 wired audio cable is going through the USB -C connector and the 5909 has a digital USB mode that is not available on the N700NC M2.
Amir tested the N700NC M2 wired and "on". As he indicated, any DSP correction would be active. In the case of the N700NC M2, that would mean ANC and, if enabled, ambient/talk-thru mode, but no EQ. This could be a problem for the measurements... For example, the ANC processing has a time-element factor (like a PID-type response). This could very well explain the difficulty Amir had to match L & R channels and the choppy FR response...
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This web page in Korean that you linked to is interesting! If understand it right, they are saying that whatever "curve" you draw on the app is approximated by the settings of 10x fixed GEQ. filters. I was under the impression that the N700NC M2 had a "semi-parametric" EQ where each point represented a "variable Gain / variable Freq / fixed Q filter".
Are you an advocate for that, I thought you preferred Harman Target as-is?Actually many other well received headphones have a dip there e.g. HifiMan models, and...the Sennheiser HE-1
That's what is said at that link, the bit I bolded in your post, you have it correct, it's not proper parametric EQ.
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Maybe I’ll try simulating this with PEQ to see how it sounds on my cans.Actually many other well received headphones have a dip there e.g. HifiMan models, and...the Sennheiser HE-1
The headphones arrived today and I tested a few of the open questions. This matches what @CedarX described:
This is what editing an EQ looks like:
- Wired + Powered = DSP Active / No EQ Active
- Wired w/ Power = Passive headphones (duh)
- BT = DSP Active + EQ based on app (was flat for test)
- My custom EQ was +4dB, center frequency 5500, low freqency 4400, high frequency 8000 --See image below, it is filling that dip Amir measured. It also had a -3db at 0hz, -2db @ 100hz bass -0db @ 200hz shelf.
This is what editing an EQ looks like:
I do prefer Harman, but I don't find a dip there egregious, and it can add some spatial depth as I said, but can also negatively affect tonality/timbre if overdone. I believe my AKG N90Q's 'Studio' mode (aiming to simulate studio speakers) adds a dip around here (albeit combined with its crossfeed and ITD/ILD so it's hard to isolate), which is pretty effective. (Found good old Tyll of Innerfidelity's measurements and explanation here). They also have the TruNote function I mentioned above, which is subtle but does sound like it smooths out the response. Notably the HD800, which received an average 90% rating behind the Harman target's 100% (scaled) in their blind tests (although it was the 'replicator' headphone so may have had an unfair advantage), also has a dip there. What I definitely don't like is any kind of excess over Harman in this region.
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i dug my box out of the garage because typically I dont pack them back in the travel case and i have little need for all the bits n bobs
strangely enough the box does say that is AKG by Harman... a Samsung company
now i dont use them much outside I'm not all that interested in bluetooth, although the performance over wireless is very good even though it never had anything better tham AAC
i'm using the OEM cable w/ mic and its as expected... its a $200+ piece of equipment that sold at the end for half that
ALSO on further thing... I seem to remember this set had two firmware upgrades while I had it... maybe be nothing to do with the test results
strangely enough the box does say that is AKG by Harman... a Samsung company
now i dont use them much outside I'm not all that interested in bluetooth, although the performance over wireless is very good even though it never had anything better tham AAC
i'm using the OEM cable w/ mic and its as expected... its a $200+ piece of equipment that sold at the end for half that
ALSO on further thing... I seem to remember this set had two firmware upgrades while I had it... maybe be nothing to do with the test results
Just one point, the dip in Amir's graph that you're pointing to is at 6kHz, whereas your EQ peak is at 8kHz, so you're not filling that gap. 8kHz on Amir's graph is already showing both drivers directly aligned on the Harman Target, so instead you're just creating an "unnatural peak" at 8kHz above the Harman Target whilst the 6kHz dip remains unfilled, which is the worst situation because you've got a massive dip at 6kHz followed by a peak immediately after at 8kHz. But at those high frequencies you can't really be that sure you're getting the same experience when you wear them on your head as the measurements become more unreliable at the higher frequencies, so ideally you wouldn't be putting in sharp EQ filters at high frequencies - but given we know this isn't proper parametric EQ being implemented, but instead Graphic EQ which has a bandwidth of Q1.41 for each of the 10 graphic EQ bands, then this is not quite so bad as they are broader filters - but either way the EQ is not doing what you said it does, it's not filling in the dip in Amir's graph.
thewas
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Would be interesting to see some comparative measurements of those modes, unfortunately at a quick glance only found this https://reviewed.usatoday.com/headphones/content/akg-n90q-headphones-review
Would find it funny if Harman has added a presence "BBC dip" to their studio mode when they actually are against it and their own good loudspeakers and monitors don't really have such, but with their often inconsistent strategies it wouldn't surprise me.
Wow, they're some expensive not quite old skool headphones! (launched 2015). TruNote would be pretty darn interesting to see measured on GRAS - stock vs TruNote on GRAS. GaryH mentioned he'd like to see such measured, would be interesting to see if anything could be worked out from measuring the effect. Maybe if it was measured on different rigs (GRAS / B&K / miniDSP EARS, etc), I wonder if any patterns (& insight) could be deduced from measuring stock vs TruNote.
I got them for $299 new on clearance a few years ago
As I added to my previous post, Innerfidelity's Tyll measured TruNote and all the spatial modes and bass/treble tone controls (not on a GRAS though, on the same HATS Rtings use), see here:
AKG N90Q Noise Canceling Auto-Calibrating Over-Ear Headphones Page 2
Electronics The AKG N90Q is a fully active electronic headphone; it can not be used passively when the battery runs out after about 10 hours. That included storage battery will come in handy on trans-oceanic flights.
www.stereophile.com
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