Aiyima’s new balanced amplifier- A20

[Schlippwhip68]

So the conclusion is that we should just use them A20 and T20 as they are, no need to spend money on part replacement for some placebo effects?

Ok, there is no such thing as placebo effect when rolling op amps. There are genuine differences that are very easily heard. If hearing the differences are not possible in your own ears then there is no need to spend any money (if the pennies are all anyone is concerned about).

I have the T20 and A20 here and have rolled the A20 already to house the Muses 02. The improvements heard are clear. Better detail retrieval, better definition in the bass, better leading edges on the notes with a more crisp accurate sound, more texture to the vocals. Also the measurements of the Muses 02 are very much suited to the Psvane Horizon 12AX7-AT valve and the opa828 which also like the Muses 02 is a fast chip while the Horizon is a clean and lively yet neutral valve. The neutrality of this valve and opa828 will feed the A20 from the T20 with a fast clean sound that will be virtually distortion free which in turn the Muses 02 will work very effectively indeed and will be a marked improvement over stock state of both units. If any one does not hear these improvements then that is down to the individual and not what is in reality the upgrade in engineering.

People whom generalise and remain dogmatic according to their own opinion really should find another field to which they may remain because that attitude does not belong in Audio or science for that matter. In my experience, it is best if possible to retain an open mind towards improvements made through the gathering of information, theory and the application thereof of which without would leave any such products non existent.

In my opinion the best thing to do is find out for yourself and only take people’s opinions to your ears afterwards and in remembering of your own opinion is only formed out of temporal experiences.

Listen to the amplifier in stock sound for 3 months then replace the chip with a Burr Brown opa2134. I assure you, presuming your ears are in good shape, will hear a difference and while I could tell you what the difference would be again that would be according to my own ears. I would invite you to tell me here what differences you now hear with your own ears. The opa2134 is a good amp chip and cheap so you won’t break the bank finding out for yourself. Whether you prefer the difference is entirely up to you.

 

[lucian]

placebo effect is proven uncountable times for everything that depends on perception of the human brain, not only medical drugs, but also just medical operations, perceived monetary value of objects, also audio cables - and so on and on.

the point is, its called placebo - because WE can not differentiate the placebo effect from the real effect. (except we take counter measures like double blind test).

so - how you are so sure that with "rolling ob amps" here is no placebo effect?

 

[JSmith]

If hearing the differences are not possible in your own ears then there is no need to spend any money

Please, don't tell members there is something wrong with their ears because they can't hear opamp differences. It's just spreading misinformation that is not based in reality.


JSmith

 

[SnakeLord]

People whom generalise and remain dogmatic according to their own opinion really should find another field to which they may remain because that attitude does not belong in Audio or science for that matter. In my experience, it is best if possible to retain an open mind towards improvements made through the gathering of information, theory and the application thereof of which without would leave any such products non existent.

Wise words have been spoken!

So why dont you just "open mind" towards clever people, facts, physics, logic and common sense?
Or at least start with some level matched A/B listening? You can do it on a budget and in the long run it will even save you money since you will be free from the urgent need to hunt for "perfect sound" which just doesnt exist. Especially not in some "magic" op-amps

 

[Schlippwhip68]

exactly. the effect of different OP is extremely small or even negative (considering starting with an audio op in first place ofc)

the by far weakest point of audio chain is the speaker + room. there you can actually achieve significant improvement.

Personally, my ears do not captivate an ‘extremely small’ difference when changing op amps, the difference heard is often significant enough to make a conscious decision towards purchase.

Negative results can be heard from system mismatch everywhere in Hifi. Good speakers should only reflect the quality of the source.

 

[Schlippwhip68]

Wise words have been spoken!

So why dont you just "open mind" towards clever people, facts, physics, logic and common sense?
Or at least start with some level matched A/B listening? You can do it on a budget and in the long run it will even save you money since you will be free from the urgent need to hunt for "perfect sound" which just doesnt exist. Especially not in some "magic" op-amps

lol…..it’s true. I come from a Surfing background and held to some degree the same delusional ethos that there was a perfect wave to ride somewhere and went looking for it. Never found it but I did find some I really liked much the same as op amps. I also was never perfect either in the first place unlike my Creator and His son, Jesus.

 

[caught gesture]

People whom generalise and remain dogmatic according to their own opinion really should find another field to which they may remain

You do realise that you just described yourself?

 

[Schlippwhip68]

You do realise that you just described yourself?

lol….yes I did find myself with dogmatism writing this and am currently wrestling with it, thankyou for the confirmation

 

[Schlippwhip68]

Ok, Hi everyone,
Done a fair bit of swapping around last night, op amps and cables. I can say with some confidence that all arguments aside the sound of the T20/A20 can be tailored very easily to your own tastes. I went through a few different op amps in the T20. I didn’t bother changing the Muses 02 in the A20 as I want them in there regardless. My main aim was to get the best match from the T20. I tried the opa1656, opa2604, Muses 02, opa828, SX52B and the original stock LME chips.

They all gave different results.
The most drastic differences were with the opa2604 and the opa828. The others pretty much sounded similar to each other but still with differences.
The opa2604 was typical of that chips sound, big, bold and airy.
The opa1656 was balanced clean and detailed more reserved than the opa2604 which surpassed all for sheer an upfront powerful sound.
SX52B a bit too smooth for my tastes with soft edges everywhere but some might like it but I prefer a little more bite.
The Muses 02 as well as the Muses 02 in the A20 produced a very silky sound, super refined but also slightly reserved.
The opa828 at first was a little harsh (brand new chip) even a touch sibilant but after a few hours the chip settled into the system and the slightly harsh edge and sibilance disappeared. These work with the Muses 02 in the A20 very well indeed and the stock valves.

The winner for me, not really any of them as they all had a nice character to each but for clarity and neutrality from the T20 I left the opa828 in there to work with the forthcoming Psvane 12AX7-AT valve and the Muses 02 in the A20.

The stock Psvane ECC83 valves do a fine job, clean detailed and dynamics are very good in total. How much further the Horizon valves will take this system will be heard in a few days when the valves arrive.
In comparison to the LME stock chips the opa828 and Muses 02 are far better. I went back to the stock chips and found their shortcomings. The LME chips are good for an out of the box sound and to be honest I could easily settle on the sound signature of the T20/A20 in stock fashion. With the chips changed to the T20/opa828 and A20/Muses 02 the sound of the low frequency was far better controlled. Less bloated and less hollow sounding, more notes to the bass. A little less wight to the bass but more definition over all, tighter sounding. All the notes have more edge, more bite in all frequencies and a far cleaner, darker background. It’s a good chip combination for this rig.

The cables also changed things as did switching dacs. Most of the rating was done with a Topping E50 dac and Van Damme Tour Grade Classic balanced cable.
I changed the dac to an iFi Zen One Signature and the cables to some custom made 7n silver plated OCC copper cable.
The resolution after that change went through the roof! The sound was incredibly clean, more precise sounding, less blurred and very much cleaner all round.

I’m now done. I am going to leave the opa828 in the T20, the Muses 02 in the A20 and sit and wait for the Horizons to turn up then set and forget. I am now happy with it enough to walk away satisfied and get on with my day job!

Good work Aiyiama it’s a great pre amp and power/integrated amplifier that I am sure many like myself are going to be very please in using.

P.S. In regard to actual output power then if you want ear bleeding levels you need to go to a concert as you certainly will not find it with this combination. I have a 5m x 5m 3m (WxHxH) room and at 2.00 o’clock on the A20 and around 80 on the T20 it’s loud enough to enjoy there is some room to get louder but it would be uncomfortable for some if they are on there own. Party wise then no this is not a party amp. Maybe buy an JBL PartyBox 320 or 710 for that. This is a small to medium size room amp at best. I am running this with a pair of Q acoustic 3020i @ 6ohm impedance. You may get a little more out of it with an 8 ohm speaker and maybe higher sensitivity but this is no room shaker in regard to volume. The Aiyima A70 is way more powerful, much louder probably around 40% louder if not more.

Incidentally I contacted Aiyima concerning the difference between the Anniversary edition and the now standard editions available and they the only difference is the anniversary tag on the case, nothing internal is any different.
Have a great day!

 

[caught gesture]

 

[antcollinet]

Seconded.

 

[antcollinet]

Ok, Hi everyone,
Done a fair bit of swapping around last night, op amps and cables. I can say with some confidence that all arguments aside the sound of the T20/A20 can be tailored very easily to your own tastes. I went through a few different op amps in the T20. I didn’t bother changing the Muses 02 in the A20 as I want them in there regardless. My main aim was to get the best match from the T20. I tried the opa1656, opa2604, Muses 02, opa828, SX52B and the original stock LME chips.

They all gave different results.
The most drastic differences were with the opa2604 and the opa828. The others pretty much sounded similar to each other but still with differences.
The opa2604 was typical of that chips sound, big, bold and airy.
The opa1656 was balanced clean and detailed more reserved than the opa2604 which surpassed all for sheer an upfront powerful sound.
SX52B a bit too smooth for my tastes with soft edges everywhere but some might like it but I prefer a little more bite.
The Muses 02 as well as the Muses 02 in the A20 produced a very silky sound, super refined but also slightly reserved.
The opa828 at first was a little harsh (brand new chip) even a touch sibilant but after a few hours the chip settled into the system and the slightly harsh edge and sibilance disappeared. These work with the Muses 02 in the A20 very well indeed and the stock valves.

The winner for me, not really any of them as they all had a nice character to each but for clarity and neutrality from the T20 I left the opa828 in there to work with the forthcoming Psvane 12AX7-AT valve and the Muses 02 in the A20.

The stock Psvane ECC83 valves do a fine job, clean detailed and dynamics are very good in total. How much further the Horizon valves will take this system will be heard in a few days when the valves arrive.
In comparison to the LME stock chips the opa828 and Muses 02 are far better. I went back to the stock chips and found their shortcomings. The LME chips are good for an out of the box sound and to be honest I could easily settle on the sound signature of the T20/A20 in stock fashion. With the chips changed to the T20/opa828 and A20/Muses 02 the sound of the low frequency was far better controlled. Less bloated and less hollow sounding, more notes to the bass. A little less wight to the bass but more definition over all, tighter sounding. All the notes have more edge, more bite in all frequencies and a far cleaner, darker background. It’s a good chip combination for this rig.

The cables also changed things as did switching dacs. Most of the rating was done with a Topping E50 dac and Van Damme Tour Grade Classic balanced cable.
I changed the dac to an iFi Zen One Signature and the cables to some custom made 7n silver plated OCC copper cable.
The resolution after that change went through the roof! The sound was incredibly clean, more precise sounding, less blurred and very much cleaner all round.

I’m now done. I am going to leave the opa828 in the T20, the Muses 02 in the A20 and sit and wait for the Horizons to turn up then set and forget. I am now happy with it enough to walk away satisfied and get on with my day job!

Good work Aiyiama it’s a great pre amp and power/integrated amplifier that I am sure many like myself are going to be very please in using.

P.S. In regard to actual output power then if you want ear bleeding levels you need to go to a concert as you certainly will not find it with this combination. I have a 5m x 5m 3m (WxHxH) room and at 2.00 o’clock on the A20 and around 80 on the T20 it’s loud enough to enjoy there is some room to get louder but it would be uncomfortable for some if they are on there own. Party wise then no this is not a party amp. Maybe buy an JBL PartyBox 320 or 710 for that. This is a small to medium size room amp at best. I am running this with a pair of Q acoustic 3020i @ 6ohm impedance. You may get a little more out of it with an 8 ohm speaker and maybe higher sensitivity but this is no room shaker in regard to volume. The Aiyima A70 is way more powerful, much louder probably around 40% louder if not more.

Incidentally I contacted Aiyima concerning the difference between the Anniversary edition and the now standard editions available and they the only difference is the anniversary tag on the case, nothing internal is any different.
Have a great day!View attachment 486114View attachment 486113

Completely ignoring your tl;dr :

The consensus amongst qualified engineers on this site, based on understanding how op amps work, and backed up by measurements - is that swapping op amps is a pointless waste of time and money. At best it will make no audible difference, at worst it might destabilise an amp and cause it to oscillate.

People might think they are hearing real differences but this will almost certainly be because they are not testing blind (not typically possible when swapping op amps) and are hearing the effect of perceptive bias. Alternatively they may be hearing the effect of a destabilised amp oscillating. This is never a good thing.

Here is a thread with the test results given of numerous op-amps being swapped in a device. Net result - no audible improvements, some dramatic reductions in performance.

Fosi Audio V3 op-amp rolling, has anyone tried it? Snake oil? Or are there actual differences?

A plastic cup holds water. A glass looks better, has better specs in certain areas... but still it just needs to hold water, which it does fine be it crystal, Ikea glass or plastic. And sometimes the "worse" component, a plastic cup, is just what was specified for the job and lasts longer and...

audiosciencereview.com

tl:dr - don't waste your money or effort.

 

[ziggurcat]

Completely ignoring your tl;dr :

The consensus amongst qualified engineers on this site, based on understanding how op amps work, and backed up by measurements - is that swapping op amps is a pointless waste of time and money. At best it will make no audible difference, at worst it might destabilise an amp and cause it to oscillate.

People might think they are hearing real differences but this will almost certainly be because they are not testing blind (not typically possible when swapping op amps) and are hearing the effect of perceptive bias. Alternatively they may be hearing the effect of a destabilised amp oscillating. This is never a good thing.

Here is a thread with the test results given of numerous op-amps being swapped in a device. Net result - no audible improvements, some dramatic reductions in performance.

Fosi Audio V3 op-amp rolling, has anyone tried it? Snake oil? Or are there actual differences?

A plastic cup holds water. A glass looks better, has better specs in certain areas... but still it just needs to hold water, which it does fine be it crystal, Ikea glass or plastic. And sometimes the "worse" component, a plastic cup, is just what was specified for the job and lasts longer and...

audiosciencereview.com

tl:dr - don't waste your money or effort.

One of my favourite discussions was someone on a different site arguing against the influence our eyes/brains have on what we hear by saying that something like the McGurk effect doesn't work when you look away from the screen.

 

[Schlippwhip68]

Completely ignoring your tl;dr :

The consensus amongst qualified engineers on this site, based on understanding how op amps work, and backed up by measurements - is that swapping op amps is a pointless waste of time and money. At best it will make no audible difference, at worst it might destabilise an amp and cause it to oscillate.

People might think they are hearing real differences but this will almost certainly be because they are not testing blind (not typically possible when swapping op amps) and are hearing the effect of perceptive bias. Alternatively they may be hearing the effect of a destabilised amp oscillating. This is never a good thing.

Here is a thread with the test results given of numerous op-amps being swapped in a device. Net result - no audible improvements, some dramatic reductions in performance.

Fosi Audio V3 op-amp rolling, has anyone tried it? Snake oil? Or are there actual differences?

A plastic cup holds water. A glass looks better, has better specs in certain areas... but still it just needs to hold water, which it does fine be it crystal, Ikea glass or plastic. And sometimes the "worse" component, a plastic cup, is just what was specified for the job and lasts longer and...

audiosciencereview.com

tl:dr - don't waste your money or effort.

With respect then I wouldn’t invite those engineers to tune anything that I may recommend or use myself, thanks for the heads up.

To all those who know differently, those opa828’s have the best bass and general listening experience with the T20 using the chips I have here. I don’t have the any Bursons to hand but that’s out of the budget arena imo and so are the Sparkos which I am beginning to think may just have a smidge of extra hype going for them especially when it come to the Muses 02 which are a solid performer.

I tested again tonight the opa1656, opa828 and opa2064 and can without any doubt confirm the bass bliss of the opa828 and as a huuuuuge Reggae fan this is the chip of choice in the T20. The difference between the low frequencies compared to the opa2604 are night and day and its closest rival in my arsenal is the opa1656 but it doesn’t match it in regard to clarity around 30-250hrz. The vocals on the opa2604 are more sweet but it lacks bass, like quite badly lacks bass, no tones or notes but everything above 250hrz is very sweet, clear and airy.

Just simple fact folks and heard by a pair of the most discerning God given ears in the business, mine.

Incidentally I have done blind tests before now and picked correctly. Evidence is still online.

 

[antcollinet]

With respect then I wouldn’t invite those engineers to tune anything that I may recommend or use myself, thanks for the heads up.

To all those who know differently, those opa828’s have the best bass and general listening experience with the T20 using the chips I have here. I don’t have the any Bursons to hand but that’s out of the budget arena imo and so are the Sparkos which I am beginning to think may just have a smidge of extra hype going for them especially when it come to the Muses 02.

I tested again tonight the opa1656, opa828 and opa2064 and can without any doubt confirm the bass bliss of the opa828 and as a huuuuuge Reggae fan this is the chip of choice in the T20. The difference between the low frequencies compared to the opa2604 are night and day and its closest rival in my arsenal is the opa1656 but it doesn’t match it in regard to clarity around 30-250hrz. The vocals on the opa2604 are more sweet but it lacks bass, like quite badly lacks bass, no tones or notes but everything above 250hrz is very sweet, clear and airy.

Just simple fact folks and heard by a pair of the most discerning God given ears in the business, mine.

Incidentally I have done blind tests before now and picked correctly. Evidence is still online.

My bold - Bow down folks, we have one of the golden eared amongst us.


Tl;dr - if you haven't tested properly controlled, and blind, you have no idea if what you are hearing is in the soundwaves reaching your ears or created in the wetware between them.


****

From engineering, physics, and psychoacoustics, as well as numerous measurements, we know that swapping OpAmps (when they don't cause instability) has no noticeable positive impact on the sound.

Yet on the other hand we know that our hearing is subject to confirmation bias (call it placebo effect, or expectation bias if you like). What we hear is impacted by what we know, what we believe, how we feel, what we've imbibed, our life experiences, what we see etc etc. No-one is immune to this if they are human - it is how we are built. In fact we would be unable to function if our senses were not filtered by our unconscious brain. Everyone is subject to this, it happens at the unconscious level, and it is not possible to avoid it - even when we are aware it is happening.

So when we see someone state that they hear differences between OpAmps where the engineering, science and measurements all tell us that is impossible - do we just take the statement at face value - or do we attribute it to the fact that the listener is being fooled by his (humanities) very fallible auditory system?

Here is an example of how obvious it can be

 

[lucian]

actually this video doesn't work for me. maybe because i am not native English.

 

[oleg87]

The opa2604 was typical of that chips sound, big, bold and airy.
The opa1656 was balanced clean and detailed more reserved than the opa2604 which surpassed all for sheer an upfront powerful sound.
SX52B a bit too smooth for my tastes with soft edges everywhere but some might like it but I prefer a little more bite.
The Muses 02 as well as the Muses 02 in the A20 produced a very silky sound, super refined but also slightly reserved.
The opa828 at first was a little harsh (brand new chip) even a touch sibilant but after a few hours the chip settled into the system and the slightly harsh edge and sibilance disappeared.

Well there goes my yearly allowance of industrial-grade BS.

The "brand new chip" bit made me laugh out loud

 

[antcollinet]

actually this video doesn't work for me. maybe because i am not native English.

That is quite a likely reason, the bias is created by a lifetime of hearing the sounds, while watching the mouth movements. As a non native english speaker you will have spent *very* much less time doing this - even less if you are more a writer of english, rather than a speaker of it.

A similar video appropriate to your native language probably would work on you.

 

[antcollinet]

The "brand new chip" bit made me laugh out loud

Yep - i'd love to know what he thinks is happening deep in the structure of the silicon to make it change.

 

[Schlippwhip68]

My bold - Bow down folks, we have one of the golden eared amongst us.


Tl;dr - if you haven't tested properly controlled, and blind, you have no idea if what you are hearing is in the soundwaves reaching your ears or created in the wetware between them.


****

From engineering, physics, and psychoacoustics, as well as numerous measurements, we know that swapping OpAmps (when they don't cause instability) has no noticeable positive impact on the sound.

Yet on the other hand we know that our hearing is subject to confirmation bias (call it placebo effect, or expectation bias if you like). What we hear is impacted by what we know, what we believe, how we feel, what we've imbibed, our life experiences, what we see etc etc. No-one is immune to this if they are human - it is how we are built. In fact we would be unable to function if our senses were not filtered by our unconscious brain. Everyone is subject to this, it happens at the unconscious level, and it is not possible to avoid it - even when we are aware it is happening.

So when we see someone state that they hear differences between OpAmps where the engineering, science and measurements all tell us that is impossible - do we just take the statement at face value - or do we attribute it to the fact that the listener is being fooled by his (humanities) very fallible auditory system?

Here is an example of how obvious it can be

lol….that is a brainwash dude.….you are at liberty to tell me to ‘fugger off’ if you wish but I think there something wrong there if you are taking that BBC clip seriously.