Aiyama and Fosi for "serious" listening

[BumrahTheGreat]

Hi all

I hope this hasn't been done to death before but here goes. I have been using Hi-Fi separates for over 25 years and have been through all sorts of different kit and probably spent more than i should have.

Anyway, whilst setting up my office audio using some spare components i had, and waiting for my 1991 Technics SU-VX700 to be repaired i ended up buying an Aiyama A07 Max and Fosi P4 Pre-amp as i had read a lot on here about how good they are for the money. I was very surprised at how good the small kit sounds in my space, driving some cheap Wharfedale Diamond 9.1 booshelf speakers. I ended up putting the Aiyama in my main system and again was very surprised at how clean and impressive it sounded driving my Rega RX3 floorstanders. In that instance i was using my streamer/DAC (CA CXNv2) as a pre-amp and whilst it is a good streamer/DAC i am not convinced by it's pre-amp capabilities. I will be trying the Fosi P4 in the middle of these later and will see what they sound like.

My questions really are:

1) How capable are these Chinese components?
2) Is anybody using them in their main systems as a replacement for much more expensive kit?

I will let my ears judge later but i am genuinely wondering, from a sound quality perspective how big the gap is between this Fosi and Aiyama stuff and some of the more expensive "Hi-Fi" kit out there?

For context in my main system i have an integrated Exposure 3510 amplifier which to me sounds lovely but is it a mental thought to think that a combination of a Fosi P4 and Aiyama could compare to my integrated? i love the small form factor of these units and so far they have really impressed me seriously. I could sell some of my existing kit, buy all the Fosi and Aiyama kit i would ever need and still have lots of change left over!

Hope my ramblings make some sense?

 

[Joe Smith]

Sure! Well, I think the short answer is, the specs of these small components have gotten quite good. I have a lot of these amps and use them interchangeably now with my larger, vintage amps receivers and preamps. My home has a lot of smaller rooms (built in 1916) so I have smaller setups in the dining room, workroom, main bedroom etc. In most of these, wanting the equipment not to dominate the room is also important.

On the plus side, these boxes are inexpensive, have quite good specs and are NEW (no aging caps to worry about). We all griped about cases not being vented, components being poor or unbranded, and the rise in treble that non PFFB designs have - and the manufacturers all responded. Between Topping, Fosi, Aiyima and SMSL, there is a huge range of equipment available to satisfy a lot of use cases.

Cons? Well, probably longevity. Will these components last 30 years like a 70s amp or receiver? Doubtful. Appearance? I personally like the design of many of these, including the ones I selected, but some folks don't like the preponderance of little boxes. High power - this issue is being somewhat alleviated by the appearance of monoblocks, but I continue to feel (as I think many do here) that if your use case is a big room and you have somewhat inefficient speakers, using these smaller amps for the long term is probably not the best solution. Running +200 wpc on a steady basis indicates to me the need for something more robust.

I recently tried the Schiit Gjallarhorn amp and their new Saga 2 preamp. Also excellent and about $650 US for the pair, but the Chinese equipment is a better value.

I think as long as you're not demanding very high volume/SPLs and accept that 10 years or so is a good life for this equipment, the track is clear for you...

Equipment I own in this class includes:
SMSL SA-50 (older model)
SMSL AO100
Fosi V3
Aiyima A04
Aiyima A07
Aiyima A07 MAX
Fosi P4
Fosi Q6 (DAC)

 

[BumrahTheGreat]

Sure! Well, I think the short answer is, the specs of these small components have gotten quite good. I have a lot of these amps and use them interchangeably now with my larger, vintage amps receivers and preamps. My home has a lot of smaller rooms (built in 1916) so I have smaller setups in the dining room, workroom, main bedroom etc. In most of these, wanting the equipment not to dominate the room is also important.

On the plus side, these boxes are inexpensive, have quite good specs and are NEW (no aging caps to worry about). We all griped about cases not being vented, components being poor or unbranded, and the rise in treble that non PFFB designs have - and the manufacturers all responded. Between Topping, Fosi, Aiyima and SMSL, there is a huge range of equipment available to satisfy a lot of use cases.

Cons? Well, probably longevity. Will these components last 30 years like a 70s amp or receiver? Doubtful. Appearance? I personally like the design of many of these, including the ones I selected, but some folks don't like the preponderance of little boxes. High power - this issue is being somewhat alleviated by the appearance of monoblocks, but I continue to feel (as I think many do here) that if your use case is a big room and you have somewhat inefficient speakers, using these smaller amps for the long term is probably not the best solution. Running +200 wpc on a steady basis indicates to me the need for something more robust.

I recently tried the Schiit Gjallarhorn amp and their new Saga 2 preamp. Also excellent and about $650 US for the pair, but the Chinese equipment is a better value.

I think as long as you're not demanding very high volume/SPLs and accept that 10 years or so is a good life for this equipment, the track is clear for you...

Equipment I own in this class includes:
SMSL SA-50 (older model)
SMSL AO100
Fosi V3
Aiyima A04
Aiyima A07
Aiyima A07 MAX
Fosi P4
Fosi Q6 (DAC)

Hi, thanks for the reply. I think my use case is relatively limited really. I don't tend to keep my kit for 10 years as i get itchy feet. My existing speakers aren't too demanding at 89db and i listen to mainly low to medium volumes in a medium sized room. I suppose the question (which i will try and answer myself with my ears later) is from a sound quality perspective can a Fosi P4 and Aiyama A07 (single not MONO) compete with a £2k integrated? My initial impression of these components is that they may be able to get closer than i ever thought they could. I use 2 RCA inputs only and a phono stage for my TT so is what i have massive overkill? I love the fact that this "cheap" Chinese kit feels pretty well made, looks decent enough and has a small footprint. I am seriously tempted to look at some of the DAC's maybe. I just find looking at the components so much fun, just feels like such great value. Sure, they may not have the longevity and be missing some features but for out and out sound quality? I love the fact that it's even a conversation, maybe that's because i'm a Yorkshireman!

 

[DVDdoug]

With solid state electronics, it's just not hard to get sound that's better than human hearing. And with class-D the cost per Watt has come way down.

Of course tone controls and EQ make a difference.

Otherwise if there is a difference or defect it's usually noise (hum, hiss, or whine in the background). And noise is tricky because there's more than one way to measure it and audibility depends on the sensitivity of your speakers, how close you are to the speakers, and other ambient noise in the room. And it can come from any analog component in the signal chain so you need to identify the source of the noise before blaming the power amp.

i am not convinced by it's pre-amp capabilities.

Phono preamps and microphone preamps can have audible noise because they are high-gain and any noise gets amplified. But as a line-level "control center" I wouldn't expect anything audible from a preamp. Line level signals are "easy" unless you get a ground loop or some kind of unusual problem.

I will let my ears judge later

Audiophoolery is an article that talks about but few REAL characteristics of sound quality so you won't be listening for all of that mysterious stuff that "audiophiles" often talk about.

And if you want to do "serious" listening tests, Amir has a YouTube video: Controlled Audio Blind Listening Tests

I have been using Hi-Fi separates for over 25 years and have been through all sorts of different kit and probably spent more than i should have.

I've used an AVR ever since I set up a home theater. (That's the only economical-practical way to get surround sound.) And by that time, I had pretty-much stopped buying-into the idea that separates where better. You get a lot more for your money with a receiver or AVR because they are mass manufactured and distributed, and sold into a competitive market.

 

[JeremyFife]

Welcome to ASR

As you are finding out, electronics are not really that important as long as they are well designed. As long as you have enough clean power to go loud enough it's the speakers and your room that matters.

Features are important as are aesthetics, build quality and after sales support. How much these things matter is your personal choice.

Country of manufacture doesn't change the sound.

Stick around, read some reviews, join in a discussion. I have learned loads. Enjoy

 

[BumrahTheGreat]

Welcome to ASR

As you are finding out, electronics are not really that important as long as they are well designed. As long as you have enough clean power to go loud enough it's the speakers and your room that matters.

Features are important as are aesthetics, build quality and after sales support. How much these things matter is your personal choice.

Country of manufacture doesn't change the sound.

Stick around, read some reviews, join in a discussion. I have learned loads. Enjoy

Yes i feel like i am starting to find that out. Speakers and room so important. I have been experimenting with my Rega's and what a difference that can make vs swapping electronics. Wish i had found this out maybe a few years ago but hey, never too late to learn. I am really interested to see how many people, if any have replaced or got rid of their "more expensive" kit for this kind of stuff.

 

[Joe Smith]

Well, yeah...as I say, the specs (hence, sound) are pretty darn good. And like you, I think they look good too. The slight rise in treble never bothered me anyway but the newer PFFB designes even solve that problem. You might look at some of Amir's reviews here to satisfy yourself - his recent one on the P4, and the older ones on the V3 and the A07 MAX - you can see how they measure (very respectable).

Fosi recently sent me their Q6 DAC to test, it is in the V3 family look - it works quite well. My main regular DACs are still the Schiit Modi and JDS Labs Atom+.

The cheaper SMSL DAC is still a value-buster in this category. I think it's still around $80, and performs very well.

Enjoy!

P.S. I would say as to replacing kit - the main thing this has changed for me is being very selective about which of my vintage components get fixed/restored. I have sold off a variety of vintage items I bought in the early 2000s to people who wanted them and wanted to restore them. Happy keeping the ones I have that work well and still sound good. I keep vintage cassette equipment, cd decks etc. as those are still valuable to me, for as long as they last...

 

[BumrahTheGreat]

Well, yeah...as I say, the specs (hence, sound) are pretty darn good. And like you, I think they look good too. The slight rise in treble never bothered me anyway but the newer PFFB designes even solve that problem. You might look at some of Amir's reviews here to satisfy yourself - his recent one on the P4, and the older ones on the V3 and the A07 MAX - you can see how they measure (very respectable).

Fosi recently sent me their Q6 DAC to test, it is in the V3 family look - it works quite well. My main regular DACs are still the Schiit Modi and JDS Labs Atom+.

The cheaper SMSL DAC is still a value-buster in this category. I think it's still around $80, and performs very well.

Enjoy!

Thanks again, i'll look at some of those. My CA CXNv2 uses some fairly dated Wolfson DAC's but they were well regarded back in the day so let's see. I am going to enjoy looking into this. I have read many of Amir's reviews including A07 Max, P4, V2 etc. General trend seems to be very good measurements aside from the channel disparity on some of the A07's.

 

[Joe Smith]

Thanks again, i'll look at some of those. My CA CXNv2 uses some fairly dated Wolfson DAC's but they were well regarded back in the day so let's see. I am going to enjoy looking into this. I have read many of Amir's reviews including A07 Max, P4, V2 etc. General trend seems to be very good measurements aside from the channel disparity on some of the A07's.

I sing the praises of the Schiit equipment (amp with no v/c, Saga 2 preamp with stepped relay attenuation) for low level listening. The Fosi P4 volume control is OK but mine jumps quickly in the lower range, so I usually use the amp pot to fine tune low volume. The channel matching differences of this equipment are pretty negligible at higher volumes....

 

[BumrahTheGreat]

I sing the praises of the Schiit equipment (amp with no v/c, Saga 2 preamp with stepped relay attenuation) for low level listening. The Fosi P4 volume control is OK but mine jumps quickly in the lower range, so I usually use the amp pot to fine tune low volume. The channel matching differences of this equipment are pretty negligible at higher volumes....

Yeah I’m not a fan of the volume control but will see how bad it is tonight in my main rig. I’m not a fan of the CXN v2 as a preamp although the volume control is digital so very easy to manage.

 

[Petrushka]

I’m really skeptical whether a 1 dB rise at 20kHz is worth worrying about. PFFB amps seem to run hotter, and in the case of WIIM, lack features (Airplay2).