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After the hype of Chinese HiFi brands, what is the jury?

Your sentiments on Chinese HiFi brands?


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It seems to operate on a 9 V DC power supply, center negative (!), like a guitar pedal.

Centre negative? That's brilliant- not.

I thought we'd finally got to some semblance of a defacto standard with DC connectors being centre positive on consumer gear. I just wish we'd stick to either 2.1 or 2.5mm ID and stop messing with diameters.

Remember that damn Lenovo abomination with the OD/ID contacts and thin centre pin used on laptops?
 
The DAC itself or the wall wart? (It seems to operate on a 9 V DC power supply, center negative (!), like a guitar pedal.)
Wall wart is fine... DAC turns on, seen by foobar, no output. Other DACs work fine in system so apparently output section of DAC. I will take it apart and see if I can fix it when I have some time.
 
Centre negative? That's brilliant- not.

I thought we'd finally got to some semblance of a defacto standard with DC connectors being centre positive on consumer gear. I just wish we'd stick to either 2.1 or 2.5mm ID and stop messing with diameters.

Remember that damn Lenovo abomination with the OD/ID contacts and thin centre pin used on laptops?
Standards? We had a Targus universal dock in the office.,, with 38 adaptors for power to laptops.

And people complain about USB C
 
I guess I lucked out. Got the Topping L and E 30 soon after they came out, got a replacement L 30 soon after (although I wasn't experiencing any trouble with mine), have been using them ever since. High quality sound, good ergonomics, the L 30 functioning as both headphone amp and single input preamp driven by the E 30. All for less than $300. No cause for complaint on any level. Also have the Fiio M3K DAP, dirt cheap at $69. The .5 TB memory chip I bought for it cost more. Not as high quality sound as the Topping gear, but what can I expect for the price? Pretty good sound for an ultraportable device.
 
If Topping is making 14 DACs at the moment, that means the market is big enough to support that. Nothing odd about it.

May not be the market.

Could be a marketing goal to flood the top 20 ASR SINAD ranking.

Look how many are SMSL/Sabaj and Topping in the top 20.
 
First, this is an analysis and discussion of current consumers' sentiment of Chinese HiFi brands after a remarkable and disruptive market entry; this is not a bashing of Chinese HiFi brands, so please be respectful and fair with your comments.

Moderators, I am not sure how you feel about this thread but if you don't think this thread is appropriate, please kindly intervene.

Clarification: I am not talking about Chinese manufacturing, I am talking about HiFi brands that are Chinese in origin, where the corporate headquarter is in China, and the design and engineering are conducted physically in China and the businesses sells the products as their own brand.

Some background: For many decades Chinese companies has been OEM and ODM manufacturers for ages. It started off with their manufacturing quality being not so great to mastering it. Many factories are ISO certified and the quality of some of their high end manufacturing is quite impressive. In fact, all of your revered Revel speakers, including the Salon, are made in China, not to mention your iPhones and much more.

Over the years and decades these Chinese OEM/ODM has gain experience and skills (albeit some are forced technology transfer by way of doing business in China and some are, let's be very honest here and call it what it is, patent and trade secret infringements, but that's besides the point). As the Chinese economy grows so are their ambition to move up in the value chain.

Instead of being OEM/ODM, it's time to market their own designs and products to the international market. Hence, the birth of many domestic branded companies and products, and in the world of HiFi, they are the trail blazing, high end, Matrix Audio and Denafrips, followed by superior performance market leaders such as Topping, SMSL, Gustard to name a few.

But what is so special about these Chinese HiFi brands? Superior audio performance (objective of course, this is ASR after all) at unheard of price points. A $800 DAC will out perform audibly anything Japan, North America and Europe has or can offer at easily half of the price.

Wow, what a big bang way to enter a world stage party.

But after, maybe a decade now or maybe a little less than a decade. And after this flashy coming out party for these Chinese HiFi brands. . .what are consumers current sentiment?

Across different internet channels (including ASR) I have noticed an uptick of "complaints" if you will. They largely revolve around (1) reliability (2) local support/customer service (3) aesthetics/industrial design not to international markets' taste. Though (3) is tricky, because beauty is in the eye of the beholder and not everyone cares.

What are your sentiments on Chinese HiFi brands after the hype? Before you answer, keep in mind if you want more, such as (1), (2) and (3) above, the price will increase, potentially to the levels of Japanese, North American and European brands.

TL;DR but hey, we're listening to the future of music, right?

 
Standards? We had a Targus universal dock in the office.,, with 38 adaptors for power to laptops.

And people complain about USB C

Unbelievable how it used to be. I've got one of those universal travel adaptors for laptops I bought years ago. The various colour coded jacks take up more room in the zip bag than the entire adaptor itself.
 
Why would an astute consumer be bothered by this unless they were bothered by this?

I think for the most part the Chinese brands have made inroads not made in many other markets for decades....despite marketing to obscure that.

So a company, any company, has only X amount of time/resource to develop products.

Thus if Topping, as an example, produces say 30 products a year (a number I plucked out of my arse) across its range (DAC's, Amp's, etc) then thats a lot of churn, a lot of "lets get product X out the door and move on to product Y".

This means, potentially, that things get missed... lack of time to do extended longevity testing, lack of time to really nail down design features that promote reliability etc.

Look at the Topping HS01/HS02 USB cleansers. The HS02 didnt really come out that much after the HS01... and the price difference isnt that much so why waste time and energy designing TWO devices that do the same thing (although the HS01 has some USB type limitations). Just take your time, and design a single product that covers all the bases.

The architectural issue I see with many of these brands is to cut cost they use the smallest possible chassis which then means you have limited space for all the I/O options, hence multiple versions of essentially the same device PLUS it means devices that potentially run hot (amps), run really hot cause of a lack of chassis space.

Even the HS01/02 devices run hot.. which is a real head scratcher.

Summary: product churn means a lack of focus which means something must give.

Peter

PS... Now brands like Denafrips are in a different league... they have a slowish product progression, clear marketing, are more expensive, use large chassis to provide space for all the needed options/cooling and also tend to have in country dealers.
 
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My experience with Chinese Hi-Fi mostly concerns portable DAPs.

- iBasso DX80: failed (didn't recognize microSD cards, voluntary restarting, numerous other glitches) (the replacement unit sent by the seller showed similar behaviour)
- two Questyle QP1R: failed headphone input (I was always careful with them)
- one Questyle QP1R: failed volume knob
- Dethonray Prelude DTR1: failed (blank screen, doesn't charge, no signs of life)

Lotoo PAW 6000 and Fiio X5 Mk2 both still work without issues.

The only other non-Chinese DAP brand I'm directly familiar with is Astell & Kern from Korea and I had problems with both A&K DAPs that were in my posession: failed volume knob on the first one and the second one didn't recognize micro SD card. So 100 % failure rate.

SMSL D0100 DAC still works fine.
Fiio FH7 IEMs still fine, too.
 
LACK OF FOCUS!!!!

To pick on Topping... Below is their current range of products (excluding cables).

Do they really need 10 Headphone amps, 20 DAC's?

In power amps we see MX3s 62W×2 Amplifier with built-in DAC&Headphone amp and MX5 70W×2 Amplifier with built-in DAC&Headphone amp... so 8 Watts difference but same features!!.

And almost every device has a different chassis size/design... maybe outwardly that doesnt seem important but it it adds to a lack of distinct product "presence". Compare that to say NAD Master series (both in terms of consistent product design and a focused set of products)

And as was discussed in another thread, who asked for the D70 Pro OCTO Fully Balanced DAC with 8 dac chips?... thats just engineering masturbation... which given the great SINAD of Topping products with a single dac chip... whats the point.

Give us a streaming DAC with PEQ!!!

=============================================

Headphone Amp


A50s Desktop Headphone Amplifier
A30Pro Desktop Headphone Amplifier
A70 Pro Desktop Headphone Amplifier
A90 Discrete Headphone Amplifier
L30 II Desktop Headphone Amplifier
L50 Desktop Headphone Amplifier
L70 Desktop Headphone Amplifier
EHA5 Electrostatic Headphone Amplifier
NX7 Portable Headphone Amplifier
G5 Portable DAC&AMP


DAC

DX1 DAC&Headphone amp
DX3 Pro+ DAC&Headphone amp
DX5 DAC&Headphone Amp
DX5 Lite DAC&Headphone Amp
DX7 Pro+ DAC&Headphone Amp
D10s PCM384&DSD256 USB DAC
D10 Balanced PCM384&DSD256 USB Balanced DAC
D50s Multi-input LDAC&PCM768&DSD512 DAC
D70 Pro SABRE Fully Balanced DAC
D70 Pro OCTO Fully Balanced DAC
D90LE Fully Balanced DAC
D90SE Fully Balanced DAC
E30 II lite Multi-input PCM768&DSD512 DAC
E30 II Multi-input PCM768&DSD512 DAC
E50 Multi-input PCM768&DSD512 DAC
E70 Fully Balanced Desktop DAC
E70 VELVET Fully Balanced Desktop DAC
BC3 Bluetooth LDAC DAC
U90 USB Bridge
DM7 8CH USB DAC


Power Amplifier

PA3s 80Wx2 Power Amplifier
PA5 II / PA5 II Plus Balanced Power Amplifier
PA7 / PA7 Plus Balanced Power Amplifier
MX3s 62W×2 Amplifier with built-in DAC&Headphone amp
MX5 70W×2 Amplifier with built-in DAC&HPA
LA90 Discrete Power Amplifier

Preamplifier

Pre90 preamplifier & Ext90 input extender

Others

HS01 USB2.0 Audio Isolator
HS02 USB2.0 Audio Isolator
P50 Linear Power Supply

Player

M50 Digital Music Player
 
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My overriding concerns are ethical and geopolitical, but I understand that those are not topics to be covered on this forum.
i think this is a load of shit to be honest

do i agree with everything my govt. does? of course no

these companies are set up like any other company in the west

if i was to be invited to tour this company would I start spout concerns about all kinds of political things?

would i hit john yang or whoever with these concerns? what kind of crazy is this?

but of course you dollar is your most important vote. I invite everyone to spend their money as they see fit.
 
My overriding concerns are ethical and geopolitical, but I understand that those are not topics to be covered on this forum.
I disagree as warranty service is certainly a concern. Now you are forced at your expense to ship back to the PRC, and economy broken by their COVID policy. Their vibrant re-emergence not only never happened, but they're in a deflationary tailspin they can't emerge from without admitting the mistakes made. Communist regimes don't make mistakes. They are quickly running out of peaceful actions available and if they go for the nationalistic distraction your warranties are toilet paper.
 
i think this is a load of shit to be honest

do i agree with everything my govt. does? of course no

these companies are set up like any other company in the west
These companies are literally set up nothing like companies in Europe or N. America. From an investor standpoint you can literally rely on none of the data and there is no industry not directly subject to government whim. Ask Jack Ma very formerly of Alibaba Group. Cooperate oversight instead of functioning in the shareholder interests is whatever your told it is.
 
Alright people, no more politics, please.

Everyone is entitled to spend their money how they like. Don't go around telling people how to spend their money.
 
These companies are literally set up nothing like companies in Europe or N. America. From an investor standpoint you can literally rely on none of the data and there is no industry not directly subject to government whim. Ask Jack Ma very formerly of Alibaba Group. Cooperate oversight instead of functioning in the shareholder interests is whatever your told it is.
my guy do you think western companies are a paragon of virtue?

western companies have no issue selling opiates to the masses, nor do they care about pollutiing the earth the water your kids with forever chemicals

do you forget about stuff like Enron? you talk corporate oversight?

it is my contention that they are neither as good or as bad as whatever nonsense we put up with in the west.

and btw. we are talking about HI FI companies here. You gonna be invaded by reds under the bed with Fosi V3s???
 
For good or bad what is the real competition for these companies is the long established mentality of feeling like a king when it came to purchase HiFi gear.
Where dealers are willing to let you listen to it.compare it (a good client can do so at home),carry it for you,deliver it,fix it and return it to you,answer your concerns and communicate instantly,etc.
Some of them (I think I have seen Gustard and Denafrips in such a physical shop,I don't know if Shegenaudio pushes these brands differently or is the margin that does it) seem to have made their way in so they enjoy the benefits.

Of course these kind of dealers tend to exist less and less,but that's the way audiophiles (at least the ones I know) have used to get things.

The above is difficult and the fact that trust is the No1 thing when it comes to gear (I don't know lots of people who would plug a thingie in their 50K speakers without a care) makes hard for companies abroad to enter,even when they have an impeccable record,specially when there's nowhere to turn when things go south.
Japanese worked very hard for their reputation,invested on repair centers,offer schematics,etc.

It won't be easy go beyond disposable (as they turn to be as after a year you're 2-3 models behind,can't really sell anything) under 300$ gear.
 
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Deeply flawed poll - I can't vote

Is the issue
* country of manufacture, or design
* new brands.
* hifi equipment made by companies with no track record in the industry
* 'too good to be true" price/performance

Last one perhaps?
 
What else could you count as Chinese Hi FI? The Chinese owned but regarded as British brands, for example.

Products from companies based elsewhere, but manufactured in China, do they count? What about products made in other countries with a large percentage of Chinese made components? How about the KEF models made in the UK, when the parent company is Chinese?

Are Hong Kong companies considered in the same way as those in other parts of China yet?

Would your answers be different if, say, we were discussing the now Korean owned JBL or Revel rather than Chinese owned companies?

The poll and question is meant only to address a small group of companies, I know, but using "Chinese" as shorthand for them raises more questions than it answers, as I see it. There is a problematic underlying assumption that disturbs me somewhat.
 
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