After calibrating my setup, what does my MMM look like?

[olds1959special]

I have a complex setup with a multi-output device, four subs and four amps, with the lows going through the crossover of the top subwoofers. Also, the 12" subs on the bottom play the lows from 50Hz down while the upper 10" subs play 50Hz to 90Hz and work as a crossover for the mains (woofers only). I spent hours taking MMM measurements, adjusting EQ and other settings to try to get a flat response in my room. After doing that I did a few more tweaks which subjectively improved the sound, then I measured again. This is what I came up with. I guess I like bass.

 

[DanielT]

Why not just have your 12" subwoofers and your floorstanding speakers operating from 50 Hz and up? Why mix your 10" subwoofer into your hifi solution?

 

[kemmler3D]

It looks like you have your 10" sub turned up an extra 6-7dB... This seems like a complicated way to EQ in some extra midbass.

Other than this I might EQ the broad peaks at 1khz and 6khz but without knowing the cause of those in the MMM, not sure it would actually improve the response.

 

[90sNintendoKid]

I agree with the previous comments.

Can you measure just the 12 inch subs and just the 10 inch?

If the 12 inch subs have any nulls then I propose you measure the 10 inch subs at different positions until you find a position where the 10 inch cover the nulls. But that would depend on how the sum of all subwoofers measure and then the optimal delay etc.

I would recommend some way to EQ the speakers and subwoofers.

 

[DanielT]

It looks like you have your 10" sub turned up an extra 6-7dB... This seems like a complicated way to EQ in some extra midbass.

Other than this I might EQ the broad peaks at 1khz and 6khz but without knowing the cause of those in the MMM, not sure it would actually improve the response.

Yes, now I see what the 10" subs add. Okay, but if it's a extra bass umf in that range that olds1959special wants, then why not via EQ boost those floor speakers? They seem to have dual 8" bass woofers so they should have decent power handling and not sweat too much from a little extra dB of bass umf.

 

[kemmler3D]

Yes, now I see what the 10" subs add. Okay, but if it's a extra bass umf in that range that olds1959special wants, then why not via EQ boost those floor speakers? They seem to have dual 8" bass woofers so they should have decent power handling and not sweat too much from a little extra dB of bass umf.

I agree, but he's already got it set up and seems happy... I wouldn't be but it's not my system.

Given the statement in the original post I might just suggest turning up the 12" or EQ to get the low bass up along with the midbass so it's all boosted and not just part of it.

I assume that placing the subs around the room to take care of nulls is not an option, but if it was I think that would be the standard advice.

Actually with 4 subs and 4 discrete outputs I'd be looking into a DBA or Dirac ART, but that's a whole other direction, and also assumes freedom in placement.

 

[olds1959special]

I started all over again without going through the crossover of the sub. I played around with settings trying to be minimalist with EQ. I had to use a low shelf filter at 120Hz, some reductions of bass frequencies like 41Hz and 62Hz, and tried to optimize the crossovers (between the two sets of subs) and physical settings on the gear. I also had to lower my tweeter/midrange amps a couple notches. I think this is the best looking measurement I've come up with so far. The sound is good and the gain settings are perfect. When it’s turned up all the way it’s loud but not damagingly so. No accidents waiting to happen. Fortunately my two DACs are at full volume so no bit loss there.

Edit: this is the best it’s ever sounded!

 

[olds1959special]

Other than this I might EQ the broad peaks at 1khz and 6khz but without knowing the cause of those in the MMM, not sure it would actually improve the response.

I’m not sure if these bother me with my current setup (see previous post for measurement.) 1kHz is the ever important midrange and 6kHz is the best frequency to boost to hear dialogue better! With the amount of variation and funkiness in the low end these small peaks don’t seem so bad in the big picture. Everything lines up more or less.

 

[olds1959special]

I started over with the EQ and settings and got this with a low shelf filter only.

 

[kemmler3D]

Looks pretty reasonable, but you'd think with 2x 12" subs you could get more action below 35hz... Maybe it's the room?

 

[olds1959special]

Looks pretty reasonable, but you'd think with 2x 12" subs you could get more action below 35hz... Maybe it's the room?

Thanks for pointing this out. I spent the day playing with things and ended up with a decent looking flat measurement from bottom to top that had lots of low bass and it sounded TERRIBLE. So I took off almost all of the software settings except for some of the basic ones. I played around for a few minutes, just listening to music and adjusting by ear. It sounds fine now, and I was curious what the MMM would look like, so here it is!

I guess I have to take out the 41 Hz peak. This never ends does, it? I took out the peak, and so I guess I'm done.

 

[kemmler3D]

This never ends does, it?

It does, once your measurements match your intention and it also sounds good.

It could be that you have a really long decay time down below 30hz, not uncommon. In that case it might measure flat but sound bad. You could look at the waterfall view to see if that's the case, although I think you need to do a single sweep instead of MMM for that.


I think if you knock down the peak at 40hz, and maybe slightly boost 100hz with a narrow-ish filter, it will really come together and maybe you will feel good about leaving it alone for a while.

If you look at this same graph with some smoothing (VAR is a good one, I also like to look with 1/12 octave) it might make it more clear where you still want to intervene.

 

[olds1959special]

It does, once your measurements match your intention and it also sounds good.

It could be that you have a really long decay time down below 30hz, not uncommon. In that case it might measure flat but sound bad. You could look at the waterfall view to see if that's the case, although I think you need to do a single sweep instead of MMM for that.


I think if you knock down the peak at 40hz, and maybe slightly boost 100hz with a narrow-ish filter, it will really come together and maybe you will feel good about leaving it alone for a while.

If you look at this same graph with some smoothing (VAR is a good one, I also like to look with 1/12 octave) it might make it more clear where you still want to intervene.

I got the 41 Hz peak out. I'll play around with 100Hz. Thank you!

 

[olds1959special]

It does, once your measurements match your intention and it also sounds good.

It could be that you have a really long decay time down below 30hz, not uncommon. In that case it might measure flat but sound bad. You could look at the waterfall view to see if that's the case, although I think you need to do a single sweep instead of MMM for that.


I think if you knock down the peak at 40hz, and maybe slightly boost 100hz with a narrow-ish filter, it will really come together and maybe you will feel good about leaving it alone for a while.

If you look at this same graph with some smoothing (VAR is a good one, I also like to look with 1/12 octave) it might make it more clear where you still want to intervene.

+2dB at 97Hz did the trick to make it sound a little fuller and not so thin.

 

[Keith_W]

Why not learn to read the FR yourself.

The REW eBook in my sig shows you how to generate a target curve and use it to compare with your measured response. I gave you the link a few times before. I know you haven't looked at it because you are still asking the same very basic questions.

 

[olds1959special]

Why not learn to read the FR yourself.

View attachment 518107

The REW eBook in my sig shows you how to generate a target curve and use it to compare with your measured response. I gave you the link a few times before. I know you haven't looked at it because you are still asking the same very basic questions.

I just downloaded the books! Thanks.

 

[olds1959special]

It does, once your measurements match your intention and it also sounds good.

It could be that you have a really long decay time down below 30hz, not uncommon. In that case it might measure flat but sound bad. You could look at the waterfall view to see if that's the case, although I think you need to do a single sweep instead of MMM for that.


I think if you knock down the peak at 40hz, and maybe slightly boost 100hz with a narrow-ish filter, it will really come together and maybe you will feel good about leaving it alone for a while.

If you look at this same graph with some smoothing (VAR is a good one, I also like to look with 1/12 octave) it might make it more clear where you still want to intervene.

This morning I added a +0.5dB high shelf filter at 10kHz. 1dB was too much for me.

Today I found that using 12dB Bessel slope crossovers instead of 12dB Butterworth helped reduce some of the bass bloat. The crossover is at 50Hz but I'm trying 60Hz now, and my 10" subs have the LPF set at around 100 or 110 Hz (setting higher sounds bad.)

I have some LM4562NA op-amps on the way, which will replace the NE5532's in the woofer amps. (I know this shouldn't really affect performance or sound quality, but I'm curious if I'll notice anything at all.)

 

[olds1959special]

Why not just have your 12" subwoofers and your floorstanding speakers operating from 50 Hz and up? Why mix your 10" subwoofer into your hifi solution?

I have tried both ways and I like the sound of both subs together when used in this way. Also I don’t have any easy solution for a crossover so I’m going double-bass.

To get a crossover going I would have to change the setup by using my MiniDSP as a source for the mains/subs somehow. Right now the MiniDSP handles the subs (allowing for the crossover between them) and the SMSL DO100 Pro plays through the mains. The advantage is that my speaker amps can be connected through a balanced connection.

 

[olds1959special]

Looks pretty reasonable, but you'd think with 2x 12" subs you could get more action below 35hz... Maybe it's the room?

My Klipsch subs only go down to 28Hz.

 

[olds1959special]

I was wondering why I should have to turn down the amps for the midrange/tweeter, shouldn't they have the same gain? Despite the jump up at 700Hz which is the crossover frequency? I went ahead and matched the levels, then reduced the low shelf filter and got rid of the high shelf filter. I think it sounds better this way.