After 9 Months of Research - Rate My First System (Before I Buy It)!

[JeremyFife]

This revelation I've arrived at, thanks to ASR, is what has me leaning toward a Technics SL-1500C. No fuss, direct drive, detachable headshell so I can futz around with cartridges later, and built in phono stage (if I go WiiM Amp to passives rather than WiiM Ultra to actives).

The challenge here is I've got a 300EUR price match discount to take advantage of on a great belt drive TT (Pro-Ject X1 B) that could go balanced from TT to phono (if I wanted it to in the future)...and so if I go that route, it pretty much determines the Ultra path, because I need a phono stage of some sort, even if the investment in a balanced input one comes later.


A balanced output from a TT with a MC cartridge to a phono stage drops the noise floor considerably. I want the cleanest and strongest sound from the TT, in whatever way that manifests...so is a balanced signal from a quality phono stage into the WiiM Ultra/Amp outweighed by an unbalanced signal from a higher quality cartridge directly to the Wiim Ultra/Amp?

I know that depends on the phono stage and the cartridge in question. I also know that the safest answer I am going to get is "you should let your ears determine that"...but if there is NOT a clear answer to the above, I might look at this from a "what do I get for my money right now?" perspective:

1. Pro-Ject X1 B > balanced mini XLR output > Pro-Ject S3 B = ~1.1K
2. Technics SL1500C = ~1.1K

The best way to determine this is working from speakers backward - in my restricted listening space "are Revel M16 speakers +200EUR savings equal to or better than Neumann KH 120 II speakers?" If they are, TT option 1 wins. On the other hand, if KH120s are far and away the best choice even considering the 200EUR premium, then that settles it, and I go with TT #2.

Take a breath, think about what everyone has said (including the TT naysayers, who know their stuff) and what you've learned.
My view - both options spend too much on the TT - and I like vinyl.
Go back to a cheaper option, Audio Technica with an upgrade path to an AT-VM95ML.
Either option: passive or active speakers works beautifully.
Just because you have budget doesn't mean you have to spend it ... and if you do then the place to spend it is on speakers (or some records!)

(Is it bad that my spell checker now recognises AT-VM95ML )

 

[Sokel]

I wouldn't worry much about anything other than the Balanced>Unabalanced connection included in the scheme.
It is not as easy as the other way around nor that simple.Is not nice to short outputs.

If you insist on this you have to find an solution,usually active with a THAT chip or something.

 

[DSJR]

I feel the OP is doing what some newbies all too often do - taking some decent advice but then adding so much confusion in asking about additional products to the mix and getting caught up in others opinions and maybe bypassing old-pros like me and others here... Always plenty of opinions, but after all these posts I feel 'we' should be focusing and doubling down more now on a suitable high quality sound system to last a good few years/decades.

Go active with speakers and forget dated tech passive speakers with ad-on amps and cables, no matter how 'bling' they look (I'm looking at you KEF). Genelec and Neumann are the two main ones here, readily available and smaller Genelecs are EVERYWHERE in the broadcast side around these parts!

Vinyl really these days should be regarded very much as a secondary (heart rather than head) source. As I've hinted in earlier posts, it's a masochistic pleasure and really, to play existing vinyl collections rather than new pressings often cut from hobbled digital masters (how to get a better DR figure? Remove bass below 40Hz, mono the rest under 100Hz or so, de-ess up top and roll away above 15kHz - shown in a thread here a couple of years ago when a poster did just that to a stock digital source and compared them, the DR figure jumping up I remember).

I simply don't understand ProJect decks with many a model for all seasons. Shows to me they're just chasing fads rather than making a genuinely 'better' performing/sounding product - sorry ProJect fans! I remember the once very popular Debut II model having incredibly loud motor noise (midrange harmonics in the background) being picked up by the stylus when playing and sent to the speakers, worse I feel than the rumbly autochange groove-grinders I grew up with and later, them doing an update kit with helped but didn't fully eliminate the racket. Didn't stop the hacks at What HiFi raving over it though The 'carbon fibre' tonearms zing-off at 600Hz too, but maybe it makes for an amateur's 'more exciting' listen?

We're all agreed on not going for dealer-bought high-profit cabling and the Wiim Ultra I think has friends here too.

I no longer benture there, but one of the UK subjectivist forums majored on a term 'KISS' (Keep It Simple Stupid) - and after nearly sixty years, man and school-boy once obsessed with this thing, it makes more sense than ever.

 

[Eckerslad]

I feel the OP is doing what some newbies all too often do - taking some decent advice but then adding so much confusion in asking about additional products to the mix and getting caught up in others opinions and maybe bypassing old-pros like me and others here... Always plenty of opinions, but after all these posts I feel 'we' should be focusing and doubling down more now on a suitable high quality sound system to last a good few years/decades.

Go active with speakers and forget dated tech passive speakers with ad-on amps and cables, no matter how 'bling' they look (I'm looking at you KEF). Genelec and Neumann are the two main ones here, readily available and smaller Genelecs are EVERYWHERE in the broadcast side around these parts!

Vinyl really these days should be regarded very much as a secondary (heart rather than head) source. As I've hinted in earlier posts, it's a masochistic pleasure and really, to play existing vinyl collections rather than new pressings often cut from hobbled digital masters (how to get a better DR figure? Remove bass below 40Hz, mono the rest under 100Hz or so, de-ess up top and roll away above 15kHz - shown in a thread here a couple of years ago when a poster did just that to a stock digital source and compared them, the DR figure jumping up I remember).

I simply don't understand ProJect decks with many a model for all seasons. Shows to me they're just chasing fads rather than making a genuinely 'better' performing/sounding product - sorry ProJect fans! I remember the once very popular Debut II model having incredibly loud motor noise (midrange harmonics in the background) being picked up by the stylus when playing and sent to the speakers, worse I feel than the rumbly autochange groove-grinders I grew up with and later, them doing an update kit with helped but didn't fully eliminate the racket. Didn't stop the hacks at What HiFi raving over it though The 'carbon fibre' tonearms zing-off at 600Hz too, but maybe it makes for an amateur's 'more exciting' listen?

We're all agreed on not going for dealer-bought high-profit cabling and the Wiim Ultra I think has friends here too.

I no longer benture there, but one of the UK subjectivist forums majored on a term 'KISS' (Keep It Simple Stupid) - and after nearly sixty years, man and school-boy once obsessed with this thing, it makes more sense than ever.

Interesting to read about motor noise on a Project turntable - I bought a Rega Planar 3, probably about 8 years ago, with a similar problem. With the turntable spinning, just moving the needle over the motor area causes quite a large buzz through the speakers. You can hear it even with music playing - a very poor design.

I still have the thing in the attic (my wife won’t let me sell it as it was her birthday gift) but it’s only been used once or twice in its life and sounds immediately and very obviously worse than a cd.

 

[Haskil]

Be kind to the rookie (please). I've been lurking and reading everything I can, putting off my purchases as long as I can bear...and the moment is finally here. First, some details:

Room Details

• ~5.5-6m sq (small office)
• just a couple acoustic treatments from GIK (not currently installed as they are on their way)
• listening distance is ~1-1.25m
• Disregard the stupid speaker positioning in the picture. I used freeware room design software that expired so I can't change it. The speakers will be next to the TV, and I will be sitting on-axis with a very slight toe-in for the speakers.

View attachment 391757

Budget & Other Details

• ~€2,500 - €3,000
• Vinyl, and streaming from Spotify Connect. I want the tactile vinyl experience. Non-negotiable.
• Saving space by going with active studio monitors, and limiting number of components without sacrificing upgrade paths. Also, monitors with dip switches seem more forgiving of placement near walls.
• Upgrade paths cannot include larger spaces. My office is my cave, and my wife asserts dominance over design decisions for the rest of the house. My office has a lock for my own safety.

The System

• Pro-Ject X1 B Turntable (note: getting it price matched to €850 from richersounds.ie)
  • mini-XLR
    • Pro-Ject Phono Box S3 B
      • RCA
        • WiiM Ultra (with HDMI eARC from Samsung Smart TV)
          • RCA
            • Kali IN-5s (not included in the screengrab; I am getting them from Thomann for ~€344/ea)

View attachment 391758
Final Thoughts

• I considered Neuman KH120 II as an option pretty hard, but that is way too evolved a monitor for my rookie capabilities. I also do not have a personal computer to take full advantage. I will covet them from a distance.
• I considered Adam A7V pretty hard as well due to their great warranty and various reviews (here as well as elsewhere).
• I landed on the Kali IN-5 (instead of the IN-8) because of space limitations. Worried I will regret this decision, as I know a sub is out of the question for such a small space, not to mention tricky placement (ex: under the desk is pretty much the only place).
• I contemplated a WiiM Pro Plus and a Topping A70 Pro as an alternative to the WiiM Ultra, and decided against it because of no HDMI eARC.
• Room correction through the WiiM app will have to be good enough, as well as the dip switches on the Kalis. I cannot justify the spend on miniDSP products (but appreciate and respect their quality). Maybe a consideration for the future.

So...tell me what you think. I'm excited to actually buy something, just in time for my birthday. Thank you for embracing rookies in this wild and lovely world of HiFi.

No more special hi-fi cables: take standard cables and of course those supplied with the devices... They are perfect.

Turntables? There are plenty of magnificent second-hand 33-44 rpm turntables just waiting for you... search and you will find models in perfect condition, barely worn, for prices 2/3 lower than the new one you buy. aim.
Mount a good Audio Technica at-vm95 cartridge on it and you will have plenty of time to improve the diamond by choosing a superior model designed for this cartridge when the first one is worn out.
The Wiim has a phono input it seems to me: perfect...
The speakers? Kali IN8-V or if you have saved money on the turntable, cables and phono preamp: a Génélec, a Neumann... Which we know will eventually be repairable for many years.

 

[somebodyelse]

Interesting to read about motor noise on a Project turntable - I bought a Rega Planar 3, probably about 8 years ago, with a similar problem. With the turntable spinning, just moving the needle over the motor area causes quite a large buzz through the speakers. You can hear it even with music playing - a very poor design.

That's odd - they must have downgraded it as Regas didn't do that back in the '90s.
Edit: The motor was nowhere near the path of the stylus, or any other part of the arm, on any Rega I've seen.

 

[digitalfrost]

I heard loud and clear that the cables are overkill. Are there recommendations for cables, or specific materials or details I should look for?

I like Cordial cables. They have Neutrik plugs. It is good quality but not overpriced. They make almost any cable you could want. Thomann has them, Amazon as well.

 

[dominikz]

The best way to determine this is working from speakers backward - in my restricted listening space "are Revel M16 speakers +200EUR savings equal to or better than Neumann KH 120 II speakers?" If they are, TT option 1 wins. On the other hand, if KH120s are far and away the best choice even considering the 200EUR premium, then that settles it, and I go with TT #2.

Just a comment that Revel M16, when discounted, can be had for as low as 750€ for a pair - i.e. half the price of a pair of Neumanns KH 120 II.
It seems M16 are significantly more expensive where you are so that significantly reduces their value for money.

EDIT: As I implied in the M16 thread, it is difficult to speak in the "better" or "worse" categories with such good loudspeakers. Both are quite neutral, but they also sound slightly different to eachother. Their different dispersion patterns result in a different presentation. Neumann measures better in almost every way - objectively speaking it is one of the best-measuring loudspeakers in its size class. But IMHO listening to music is equally enjoyable on either.

 

[DSJR]

Interesting to read about motor noise on a Project turntable - I bought a Rega Planar 3, probably about 8 years ago, with a similar problem. With the turntable spinning, just moving the needle over the motor area causes quite a large buzz through the speakers. You can hear it even with music playing - a very poor design.

I still have the thing in the attic (my wife won’t let me sell it as it was her birthday gift) but it’s only been used once or twice in its life and sounds immediately and very obviously worse than a cd.

What is the cartridge fitted, please? Is it one of theirs which, for some stupid reason, had minimal shielding to keep output up (estimated at 7mV @ 5cm/s)?

I don't disagree with you at all, but also, siting above an amp* in a typical rack seemed to make it worse (Roy Gandy's excuse also going back years as regards cummulitive hum fields). On their good if not pretty wall shelf or often set to the 'input' side of the amp, using AT/Linn, Goldring 10** and Ortofon MM cartridges, it wasn't an issue for us as the induced noise was well below record roar. The older Project Debut motor noise I refer to was a midrange 'whine' kind of racket picked up by the stylus and not below the record noise either!

* The kind of amps sold by Rega dealers didn't have the best transformer hum shielding either, sadly...

If you wanted to take it to PM, I'd be happy to try to help a little if I can as it's a shame the deck has been all but put away and forgotten. Regas don't *have* to be so bad, I promise you!

 

[DSJR]

That's odd - they must have downgraded it as Regas didn't do that back in the '90s.

The tendency was there all along since inception fifty years or more ago, but some cartridges, especially their dire Bias/Elys/Exact 'home made' models, emphasised it no end. Site the deck close to the top of a typical 'enthusiast' amp of the time and *bingo*- tendency for low level hum at side end... We had this with some people putting Naim power supplies right next to the preamp, inducing hum into the phono stages and denying there was a problem until shown and demonstrated the negative sonic effects of doing this (apologies for the 80s UK audio dark-ages flat-earth subjectivism here but some of this makes objective sense surely?).

A good dealer should have been aware of this and advised accordingly. Recent years have seen even 'better' UK dealer chains (one in particular which has the 1980s 'in crowd' agencies still), selling these things in factory-sealed boxes, unchecked for the unsuspecting punter to take home and use in all manner of less than ideal ways. In 'my' day, we opened every single deck we sold (even the ready-to-rock Dual 505 models), fitted and set up the cartridge (and deck), plugged the thing in, checked the belts on the suspended-motor era Regas and LISTENED to it first, usually in front of the purchaser unless a big assembly job as in a Linn LP12 and similar models), chatting as we/I went, to help the new end user get as much from it as possible. Sure we were not a big dealer branch, so usually able to do this (our main London one still had service department benches given over to turntable setting up and servicing, selling up to twenty LP12s a week needed that in the mid 80s before digital took over), but that's why I still tinker with these things in my dotage as it was part of my life for so very long

 

[Sokel]

I like Cordial cables. They have Neutrik plugs. It is good quality but not overpriced. They make almost any cable you could want. Thomann has them, Amazon as well.

Have a look here:

BOXEM Audio | Arthur 4215/E2 Purifi Amplifier | Owners' Thread

There are other alternatives so as not to spend 84E for a pair of XLR/RCA cables, you understand very well) Yep,there are lots to choose but at honest buys you get what you pay for. I have plenty cheap 4-5 euro RCA plugs who once was gold and now are turning to silver :facepalm: (and that's...

www.audiosciencereview.com

RCA to XLR Cable ("pseudo-balanced") to buy ?

Also note that in the schematic at the end of the above paper Putzeys is making use of the full XLR connector,ie apart from the usual -+G also connects ground with the XLR's case (through the 4th pin on top usually) on both input and output connectors. (TRS usually does that naturally,by it's...

www.audiosciencereview.com

Still like them?

(I would at least thoroughly test them,both how they are wired and with the DMM both end-to-end AND at each end,open )

Edit:They also use the neutrik-rean brand mostly.Rean is made in China (but it's Neutrik's company and under their QC I hope,so no harm to it)

 

[Eckerslad]

What is the cartridge fitted, please? Is it one of theirs which, for some stupid reason, had minimal shielding to keep output up (estimated at 7mV @ 5cm/s)?

I don't disagree with you at all, but also, siting above an amp* in a typical rack seemed to make it worse (Roy Gandy's excuse also going back years as regards cummulitive hum fields). On their good if not pretty wall shelf or often set to the 'input' side of the amp, using AT/Linn, Goldring 10** and Ortofon MM cartridges, it wasn't an issue for us as the induced noise was well below record roar. The older Project Debut motor noise I refer to was a midrange 'whine' kind of racket picked up by the stylus and not below the record noise either!

* The kind of amps sold by Rega dealers didn't have the best transformer hum shielding either, sadly...

If you wanted to take it to PM, I'd be happy to try to help a little if I can as it's a shame the deck has been all but put away and forgotten. Regas don't *have* to be so bad, I promise you!

It is indeed their own cartridge, as bundled with the package. It actually belongs to my partner who has a record collection from when she was younger, and is set up in our office, but she hasn’t put a record on it in years - she is more phone than phono nowadays.

I might play with it again and try changing the cartridge to one of those you suggest - thanks for the suggestions!

 

[Eckerslad]

It is indeed their own cartridge, as bundled with the package. It actually belongs to my partner who has a record collection from when she was younger, and is set up in our office, but she hasn’t put a record on it in years - she is more phone than phono nowadays.

I might play with it again and try changing the cartridge to one of those you suggest - thanks for the suggestions!

It’s an Elys cartridge

 

[Wolf11Man]

Interesting to read about motor noise on a Project turntable - I bought a Rega Planar 3, probably about 8 years ago, with a similar problem. With the turntable spinning, just moving the needle over the motor area causes quite a large buzz through the speakers. You can hear it even with music playing - a very poor design.

Why didn't you return it to the dealer to fix it? If you buy a new car and it starts to make ugly noises any time you change to 3rd gear, you would not accept that, am I right?

 

[Wolf11Man]

It is indeed their own cartridge, as bundled with the package. It actually belongs to my partner who has a record collection from when she was younger, and is set up in our office, but she hasn’t put a record on it in years - she is more phone than phono nowadays.

Like 98% of all still existing turntables. That's why buying used is so interesting. You get a product made to last for many thousands of hours that has been used for maybe twenty.

 

[DSJR]

It is indeed their own cartridge, as bundled with the package. It actually belongs to my partner who has a record collection from when she was younger, and is set up in our office, but she hasn’t put a record on it in years - she is more phone than phono nowadays.

I might play with it again and try changing the cartridge to one of those you suggest - thanks for the suggestions!

It’s an Elys cartridge

AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

!

I have one here (an original grey bodied one) and it's effin' atrocious! Didn't like it on launch and I despise it now! The new ND3 is apparently far better - it bloody needs to be!

No wonder their speakers of old used to spice up the hf and no wonder again, that full Rega system owners disliked 'digital.' Best not say more - I'll send a quick PM

 

[Wolf11Man]

If you got a record collection, you got a working record player you can replace later. Why make this thread and your life so extremely complicated, by throwing in all components at once. The speaker are the 100% important thing on your list. Any quality the don't have can not be added later. The streamer is neccessary to drive actives. Wires too. Why don't set a point here and concentrate on setting up these in your room first, so nothing distracts you.

I understand some of your ideas quite well. Don't see that as an insult: They are based on not knowing how strong a detail is influencing for the resulting sound. For example the TT with XLR thing. Something that is absolutely inaudible and extremely overpriced. You step into that trap. I had such a connection to the phono pre in the 80s. Nothing new at all. The basic noise of even a brand new record is times higher than the minimal advantage of the symetrical (XLR) connection. I skipped it when I went for a Moving coil and never went back. The guy I gave it to blew it up when he connected a grounded cartridge. You hope for an advantage and may reduce the amount of money for the speaker because of a gadget not compatible with other brands. The 200€ you do not spend on the speaker are audible after 10 seconds...

By the way, if you have problems communicating with Thomann, I sure can help if it doesn't get excessive. They are pro's, don't expect them to comment on inaudble high end details, but they can percisely answer any technical question.
Why don't you look at more expensive line of ADAM speakers? They are as well reputated in the studio world as Neumann and Genelec, but usually a little better for the same price.

 

[56suited]

If you got a record collection, you got a working record player you can replace later. Why make this thread and your life so extremely complicated, by throwing in all components at once. The speaker are the 100% important thing on your list. Any quality the don't have can not be added later. The streamer is neccessary to drive actives. Wires too. Why don't set a point here and concentrate on setting up these in your room first, so nothing distracts you.

I understand some of your ideas quite well. Don't see that as an insult: They are based on not knowing how strong a detail is influencing for the resulting sound. For example the TT with XLR thing. Something that is absolutely inaudible and extremely overpriced. You step into that trap. I had such a connection to the phono pre in the 80s. Nothing new at all. The basic noise of even a brand new record is times higher than the minimal advantage of the symetrical (XLR) connection. I skipped it when I went for a Moving coil and never went back. The guy I gave it to blew it up when he connected a grounded cartridge. You hope for an advantage and may reduce the amount of money for the speaker because of a gadget not compatible with other brands. The 200€ you do not spend on the speaker are audible after 10 seconds...

By the way, if you have problems communicating with Thomann, I sure can help if it doesn't get excessive. They are pro's, don't expect them to comment on inaudble high end details, but they can percisely answer any technical question.
Why don't you look at more expensive line of ADAM speakers? They are as well reputated in the studio world as Neumann and Genelec, but usually a little better for the same price.

Thank you. Sage advice. I was oscillating between Neumanns and the Adam A7V to be frank, and while I feel the push to Neumanns because of their measurements...Adam offers a 5-year warranty. On the other hand, there's an apparent bad dip/resonance at 650Hz, and 44Hz from a 7" woofer seems rather inadequate. Unfortunately, I am unable to listen to either so my ears can be the judge.

It's Neumanns for now, via SPDIF from the WiiM Ultra, using volume control, room correction and EQ from the WiiM. Man, I feel like I am gonna f**k this all up when I try to set it up. Maybe I'll just leave it in boxes and stare at the manufacturer labelling.

 

[somebodyelse]

The tendency was there all along since inception fifty years or more ago, but some cartridges, especially their dire Bias/Elys/Exact 'home made' models, emphasised it no end. Site the deck close to the top of a typical 'enthusiast' amp of the time and *bingo*- tendency for low level hum at side end... We had this with some people putting Naim power supplies right next to the preamp, inducing hum into the phono stages and denying there was a problem until shown and demonstrated the negative sonic effects of doing this (apologies for the 80s UK audio dark-ages flat-earth subjectivism here but some of this makes objective sense surely?).

That's just magnetic pickup from the amp's transformer field leakage, as any dealer should have known. It's nothing to do with the Rega's motor. Decks with steel below, like the LP12's subchassis back then, probably provided some incidental magnetic shielding. I suppose the Rega cartridges might have been relatively light on magnetic shielding too - I've never used one. I always considered putting the arm, cartridge or cables close to a large transformer to be asking for trouble, which is probably why I never ran into this 'problem.'

 

[Wolf11Man]

If you go Neumann, Genelec or Adam, you don't do anything wrong. Do not take the measurements too serious. You will not even find a part of that curve in a measurement in your room. So a dip is no sign of lower quality or sound, but may even suit your room better. Sorry, but this is the ugly truth. There are speaker on the market that have serious "mistakes" to call it so. Like high 3rd order distortion in the upper frequency band. Not with the brands you consider. They are all well made.

If you decide to get a new record player, try to get it without a pickup for small refund. You will see the factory cartridge is just worth nothing to the dealer in most cases. Tells you something about its quality.
The red Ortofon is quite nice pickup, you can upgrade it if you like, later, to blue. The Ortofon bronze can be fitted with the black needle.