After 9 Months of Research - Rate My First System (Before I Buy It)!

[dominikz]

@dominikz I found this thread on Reddit, and it sounds like DA/AD conversions aren't much to stress about from a sound quality perspective.

Agree, I'd expect no difference in sound quality - except if something is incorrectly connected.
My advice was only meant to simplify the connection - nothing to do with perceived sound quality.
Digital connection would be just one coaxial cable between the Wiim Ultra to the first speaker, and another coaxial cable between the two speakers.

I suppose I could just go with the analog inputs on the speakers and test it out versus SPDIF daisy-chaining and try to hear a difference, right?

Analog inputs are fine, of course, but I personally don't see that as simpler. Testing for audible differences between analog and digital inputs might be difficult to do in a meaningful way - you'd need to make sure that the levels are precisely matched (ideally better than 0,1dB) and that you have a means of instant switching between the two inputs without knowing which is playing. Given that there's likely no difference to be heard at all, this might be too much effort to invest.
Unless of course you are like the very many of us here who simply enjoy the learning process that goes with it.

what does 'gain-staging' mean? Is that a fluctuation in gains from component to component as signals convert? I am such a dumb-ass rookie.

It is an artefact of poor standardization in audio. Namely, different analogue audio devices may be optimized for different analogue signal level. Having proper gain-staging just means that the output level of the preceding audio device matches the optimal input level of the next audio device it is connected to.
With a digital connection that is not a concern because the maximum digital signal level is always 0dBFS.

A cautionary note on the spdif interface - some people have trouble with it not waking from sleep, even after Neumann's attempted firmware fix. There's some coverage here including a possible workaround. I don't think it happens with the analog connection.

If this is true then it is indeed a good reason to use analog inputs instead!

 

[56suited]

...on the topic of subs, I found this Dynaudio one that would fit into one of the square openings of my IKEA Kallax shelf, and would be centered to my listening position, and in between two speakers. The stated frequency range is quite low, and I like that it is front-facing...I feel like I may be going backward for the sake of lower frequency extension though. Is the Dynaudio LYD-7 monitor as bad as Amir seems to think the LYD-5 is? I am still kinda dumb with all the measurements, and usually scroll to the end to read his subjective review and conclusions.

Surely, the Dynaudio are no Neumanns, but if you had to choose between Neumanns with no sub, or the Dynaudio monitors plus the well-fitting sub, how would you roll? It's Neumann KH 120 for 1.4K (pair), or Dynaudio pair with a sub for 1.9K.

 

[Wolf11Man]

The Dynaudio is extremely cheap. It's price is about that you would pay for a high end tweeter from them, if the would still sell to the DIYS market.
Made in China I bet. Make up your mind how much you will get...

 

[somebodyelse]

...on the topic of subs, I found this Dynaudio one that would fit into one of the square openings of my IKEA Kallax shelf, and would be centered to my listening position, and in between two speakers. The stated frequency range is quite low, and I like that it is front-facing...I feel like I may be going backward for the sake of lower frequency extension though. Is the Dynaudio LYD-7 monitor as bad as Amir seems to think the LYD-5 is? I am still kinda dumb with all the measurements, and usually scroll to the end to read his subjective review and conclusions.

Surely, the Dynaudio are no Neumanns, but if you had to choose between Neumanns with no sub, or the Dynaudio monitors plus the well-fitting sub, how would you roll? It's Neumann KH 120 for 1.4K (pair), or Dynaudio pair with a sub for 1.9K.

It probably depends what you listen to, how loud, and maybe what you're used to. The KH 120 II goes low enough to cover the whole range with a lot of music. Most rock won't go below the bass guitar at ~40Hz. You may not notice the sub unless you're playing loud where it can relieve the load on the woofers. On the other hand electronic styles, organ and movies often go much lower, and the sub would be much more noticeable. If you've not been used to a system that can do this then you probably won't miss it if it's not there though. My preference would be to start with the KH 120 II, then add a sub later if I felt the need, but I don't listen too loud and can live without sub-bass although it's nice to have.

 

[56suited]

It probably depends what you listen to, how loud, and maybe what you're used to. The KH 120 II goes low enough to cover the whole range with a lot of music. Most rock won't go below the bass guitar at ~40Hz. You may not notice the sub unless you're playing loud where it can relieve the load on the woofers. On the other hand electronic styles, organ and movies often go much lower, and the sub would be much more noticeable. If you've not been used to a system that can do this then you probably won't miss it if it's not there though. My preference would be to start with the KH 120 II, then add a sub later if I felt the need, but I don't listen too loud and can live without sub-bass although it's nice to have.

My tastes vary wildly. I am specific about music, but broad in interest. I just went from Frank Sinatra to Massive Attack to Buju Banton, for example. I will stick with mains and save a sub for later...but not a necessity.

Thank you!

 

[Multicore]

A cautionary note on the spdif interface - some people have trouble with it not waking from sleep, even after Neumann's attempted firmware fix. There's some coverage here including a possible workaround.

If this is true then it is indeed a good reason to use analog inputs instead!

It's a concern. Get both cable types and see what works best. Thomann has low price cables.

The Genelec 1029A on my desk have somethings most newer boxes don't and I find really nice:

- Power switch on the front
- Volume dial on the front
- Screw right into a mic stand

Can you beat that?

 

[DSJR]

To save further confusion re speakers, Neumann or Genelec for your work-station is where I think you should be, accepting that there's shedloads of similar cheaper 'monitors' out there which may or may not work!

Small rooms in my experience don't do bass at all well (none rather than too much), but to see if a sub suits you, I think you're going to have to try the decided mains on their own first and see how they sound to you. Genelec 8030s seem to pop up all over the UK in broadcast editing suites these days, so spares, servicing if ever needed and so on shouldn't ever really be an issue and they'll sell on easily if you decide to go larger. Just a consideration and suppliers of Neumann such as Thomann, do have a decent returns policy I think...

Apologies for going on about the vinyl side earlier. Using a direct drive myself (with a stash of idler and belt models in the background), I couldn't give a stuff about the drive system as long as it's reliable and quiet, which looks to be the case with modern Hanpin units. Again, buy from a reputable supplier who'll take it back if it's not suitable or not functioning as it should! PLEASE make sure the deck is properly isolated and DON'T BUY ONE if you're starting vinyl from scratch (pun intended!) and not requiring something to play an existing collection.

Good luck

 

[Multicore]

Apologies for going on about the vinyl side earlier. Using a direct drive myself (with a stash of idler and belt models in the background), I couldn't give a stuff about the drive system as long as it's reliable and quiet, which looks to be the case with modern Hanpin units. Again, buy from a reputable supplier who'll take it back if it's not suitable or not functioning as it should! PLEASE make sure the deck is properly isolated and DON'T BUY ONE if you're starting vinyl from scratch (pun intended!)

Ok, now you did it!

I love that film. Really really love it. So many of the great artists in conversation and in action. Love it.

 

[kemmler3D]

I'm currently using a ****** Bose SoundLink speaker like this on my desk right now, controlled via Bluetooth from my tablet...so anything I buy will sound excellent.

Man, you're really going from cat food to caviar, huh.

if you had to choose between Neumanns with no sub, or the Dynaudio monitors plus the well-fitting sub, how would you roll? It's Neumann KH 120 for 1.4K (pair), or Dynaudio pair with a sub for 1.9K.

I know this is a bit controversial in this thread due to your small room, but I'd go with a sub, PROVIDED that you can do room correction. A sub can easily make things worse if you don't whip it into shape with PEQ. This can be done with the WiiM. If you are not going to bother with room correction, don't bother with a sub IMO.

Edit: I just realized you were asking about getting Dynaudio mains, I say no to that either way. Get a sub with the Neumanns when it makes sense for you, don't sacrifice mains for a sub.

Integrating a sub is notoriously hard, I think it's pretty easy with enough PEQ though.

The quality of the room correction will improve if you use a real mic like a UMIK... I understand not wanting to buy something for a "one time use" but you will end up pulling it out any time you move your speakers or get new ones. So maybe not all that often. They seem to hold their value well though... $79 new and they apparently sell for $70 + S&H on eBay...

 

[56suited]

Man, you're really going from cat food to caviar, huh.



I know this is a bit controversial in this thread due to your small room, but I'd go with a sub, PROVIDED that you can do room correction. A sub can easily make things worse if you don't whip it into shape with PEQ. This can be done with the WiiM. If you are not going to bother with room correction, don't bother with a sub IMO.

Integrating a sub is notoriously hard, I think it's pretty easy with enough PEQ though.

The quality of the room correction will improve if you use a real mic like a UMIK... I understand not wanting to buy something for a "one time use" but you will end up pulling it out any time you move your speakers or get new ones. So maybe not all that often. They seem to hold their value well though... $79 new and they apparently sell for $70 + S&H on eBay...

Yep - catfood to caviar. Just about to buy the Neumanns and I had a panic about leads (they're in Germany, I am in Ireland). I e-mailed them and they responded that the plugs come with adapters that slide on and off the block...at least that is what I translated from their e-mail, written in broken English (not making fun of them; it's just reality and I don't sprecken zi deutschen (sp?))

I am going to wait on the sub. The room is pretty bad for placement in general (other than if I went with that Dynaudio option put in one of the Kallax squares)...so I suppose my next upgrade path will be a sub with a UMIK, if the bass sucks and the WiiM room correction leaves much to be desired.

 

[56suited]

To save further confusion re speakers, Neumann or Genelec for your work-station is where I think you should be, accepting that there's shedloads of similar cheaper 'monitors' out there which may or may not work!

Small rooms in my experience don't do bass at all well (none rather than too much), but to see if a sub suits you, I think you're going to have to try the decided mains on their own first and see how they sound to you. Genelec 8030s seem to pop up all over the UK in broadcast editing suites these days, so spares, servicing if ever needed and so on shouldn't ever really be an issue and they'll sell on easily if you decide to go larger. Just a consideration and suppliers of Neumann such as Thomann, do have a decent returns policy I think...

Apologies for going on about the vinyl side earlier. Using a direct drive myself (with a stash of idler and belt models in the background), I couldn't give a stuff about the drive system as long as it's reliable and quiet, which looks to be the case with modern Hanpin units. Again, buy from a reputable supplier who'll take it back if it's not suitable or not functioning as it should! PLEASE make sure the deck is properly isolated and DON'T BUY ONE if you're starting vinyl from scratch (pun intended!) and not requiring something to play an existing collection.

Good luck

I actually am getting into vinyl from scratch. I received Radiohead's LP collection as a birthday gift a few years ago, and I have a longing for building up my vinyl collection all over again. Nothing wild...I have a buy list of about ~150-200 records. It's also why I am listening to advice and going wild with speakers, and toning down the expense on turntable and the unnecessary phono stage. I think I have landed on a Technics SL-100C for direct drive dependability (and I know where I can get it serviced in Ireland), and I am just undecided on cartridge now.

 

[dominikz]

Surely, the Dynaudio are no Neumanns, but if you had to choose between Neumanns with no sub, or the Dynaudio monitors plus the well-fitting sub, how would you roll? It's Neumann KH 120 for 1.4K (pair), or Dynaudio pair with a sub for 1.9K.

Have you perhaps considered Genelec 8030C?
If you can tolerate the looks they measure very well, and they are significantly cheaper than the Neumann KH 120 II.
This is because 80xx series speakers don't have DSP capabilities - you will notice that the DSP-enabled 8330A version is closer to the price of Neumanns.
Given that you will already have DSP in the WiiM there's no need to have it in the loudspeakers as well.

As far as subwoofers go, for a small room I'd personally look at the Kali WS-6.2 - it measures very well for its size and is reasonably priced.

that would fit into one of the square openings of my IKEA Kallax shelf, and would be centered to my listening position, and in between two speakers.

IME a very good position for subwoofers was usually in the room corners or close to them - but only if you can EQ! The reason is that there you have the least amount of bass suckout due to SBIR nulls, and you also get reinforcement due to quarter-space radiation. However, it will also result in very pronounced response peaks/resonances - which are fortunately very easy to knock down with PEQ/room EQ (which you could do in WiiM). Asymmetric positioning of the sub should not be an issue as long as the crossover frequency is kept low enough (80Hz or lower).
If you didn't have access to DSP then corners would probably not be ideal, as there it would almost certainly sound too boomy without EQ. As @kemmler3D said, if you can't measure and EQ perhaps better not to try to use a sub at all.

It probably depends what you listen to, how loud, and maybe what you're used to. The KH 120 II goes low enough to cover the whole range with a lot of music. Most rock won't go below the bass guitar at ~40Hz. You may not notice the sub unless you're playing loud where it can relieve the load on the woofers. On the other hand electronic styles, organ and movies often go much lower, and the sub would be much more noticeable. If you've not been used to a system that can do this then you probably won't miss it if it's not there though. My preference would be to start with the KH 120 II, then add a sub later if I felt the need, but I don't listen too loud and can live without sub-bass although it's nice to have.

While I fully agree that it may be a better idea to start without a sub (at least for the sake of keeping the learning curve more manageable), I personally disagree with the assertion that most music doesn't benefit from a sub. E.g. kick drum fundamentals often have energy in the sub-bass range, and even when not - most loudspeakers will have significant (and very audible) room-induced bass suck-out somewhere in the 40-100Hz range (e.g. bass guitar domain) which can usually also be improved by properly positioning and integrating a sub.

In both my systems adding a sub was a very noticeable improvement on most music. Of these two systems one goes down to low twenties, the other to the low thirties - and even between them the differences in bass extension are quite obvious with some music - though I concede that such recording are indeed rare (or at least less common in many genres). But on the other hand the difference between extension down to 40 or 30 Hz would be much more noticeable - and with a much wider selection of tracks. And that is without even going into how noticeable the difference would be if the total system response had more or less upper bass nulls!

I'm a subwoofer-convert, what can I say!

 

[Multicore]

Have you perhaps considered Genelec 8030C?
If you can tolerate the looks they measure very well, and they are significantly cheaper than the Neumann KH 120 II.
This is because 80xx series speakers don't have DSP capabilities - you will notice that the DSP-enabled 8330A version is closer to the price of Neumanns.
Given that you will already have DSP in the WiiM there's no need to have it in the loudspeakers as well.

+1

In terms of long life and service I suspect G may have one up on N without any data to back that up.

 

[Multicore]

I think I have landed on a Technics SL-100C

I think I could get into that. Looks like a 1200 without the pitch and strobe and dressed up like a butler instead of an MC.

 

[kemmler3D]

if the bass sucks and the WiiM room correction leaves much to be desired.

The bass probably won't suck by any means, but you'll be missing the bottom octave (20-40hz). Music can sound very good without it, many people here are totally happy to live without it, but I think it's underrated. A lot of people will say "oh well the lowest note on a bass guitar is 38hz" or whatever... missing entirely the fact that drum attacks (especially bass drums) include all frequencies, theoretically down to 0hz.

Even if there aren't musical notes with a fundamental that low, there is plenty of sound down there.


So IMO if / when you go look for a sub, definitely find one that can play down to 20hz, the KH120s will get you into the high 40s already no problem, so a sub that only does 35hz (some cheap ones are that bad) is really pointless.

Another thing to point out that people don't usually appreciate... 20-40hz is only 20hz, seems like nothing compared to the rest of the system... but it's a whole octave, 12 notes on the keyboard! Not anything to scoff at.

The last reason to get a sub is it takes some load off the mains. The KH120 has really low distortion even in the bass region, so it's less urgent. But in theory you can clean up the lower mids and overall sound by adding a sub, because some of the work of reproducing bass is taken away from the mains, which reduces excursion and therefore distortion. Probably only important if you like listening really loud. The KH120s have barely any distortion to begin with.


E: looks like I just repeated a bunch of what @dominikz said... in short, I agree with all that.

I would also add that room correction WITH a sub tends to smooth out the dips and bumps in the bass, not just the sub-bass, and it makes things sound just entirely, vastly better, the whole listening experience seems different when the foundation (lows) is properly built. My guess is that when you have uncontrolled peaks in the bass it masks quieter details in the mids, so when you get rid of those, everything sounds nicer.

 

[56suited]

The bass probably won't suck by any means, but you'll be missing the bottom octave (20-40hz). Music can sound very good without it, many people here are totally happy to live without it, but I think it's underrated. A lot of people will say "oh well the lowest note on a bass guitar is 38hz" or whatever... missing entirely the fact that drum attacks (especially bass drums) include all frequencies, theoretically down to 0hz.

Even if there aren't musical notes with a fundamental that low, there is plenty of sound down there.


So IMO if / when you go look for a sub, definitely find one that can play down to 20hz, the KH120s will get you into the high 40s already no problem, so a sub that only does 35hz (some cheap ones are that bad) is really pointless.

Another thing to point out that people don't usually appreciate... 20-40hz is only 20hz, seems like nothing compared to the rest of the system... but it's a whole octave, 12 notes on the keyboard! Not anything to scoff at.

The last reason to get a sub is it takes some load off the mains. The KH120 has really low distortion even in the bass region, so it's less urgent. But in theory you can clean up the lower mids and overall sound by adding a sub, because some of the work of reproducing bass is taken away from the mains, which reduces excursion and therefore distortion. Probably only important if you like listening really loud. The KH120s have barely any distortion to begin with.

I guess I just struggle with placement...and for the subs that DO go down to that frequency AND might fit in my space...I don't think I can integrate them, unless it's through the WiiM app. I might pick up that Dynaudio sub if I can get it to play nice with the Neumanns via the WiiM interface. It goes low AND it will fit in one of the squares of this shelf which is where the TV and speakers will sit (I have a 2x4 cube and a 2x2 cube side by side)...

 

[JeremyFife]

...on the topic of subs, I found this Dynaudio one that would fit into one of the square openings of my IKEA Kallax shelf, and would be centered to my listening position, and in between two speakers. The stated frequency range is quite low, and I like that it is front-facing...I feel like I may be going backward for the sake of lower frequency extension though. Is the Dynaudio LYD-7 monitor as bad as Amir seems to think the LYD-5 is? I am still kinda dumb with all the measurements, and usually scroll to the end to read his subjective review and conclusions.

Surely, the Dynaudio are no Neumanns, but if you had to choose between Neumanns with no sub, or the Dynaudio monitors plus the well-fitting sub, how would you roll? It's Neumann KH 120 for 1.4K (pair), or Dynaudio pair with a sub for 1.9K.

You've come this far, don't lose sight of the advice to get the best speakers you can - subs can come later, if at all.

 

[kemmler3D]

I guess I just struggle with placement...and for the subs that DO go down to that frequency AND might fit in my space...I don't think I can integrate them, unless it's through the WiiM app. I might pick up that Dynaudio sub if I can get it to play nice with the Neumanns via the WiiM interface. It goes low AND it will fit in one of the squares of this shelf which is where the TV and speakers will sit (I have a 2x4 cube and a 2x2 cube side by side)...
View attachment 392096

Good news / bad news: I have the same shelf and I have a sub that fits there. It's even force-cancelling so you don't need to worry about it rattling the shelf. The problem is they sell for ~$1400 and they don't go very loud. They do go very low. I think you might be able to find one used for about what the Dynaudio costs.


Definitely not the highest priority to get a sub, you can add one anytime. KH120s will give you decent bass in-room. A sub (or two) will just be the icing on the cake.

 

[56suited]

You've come this far, don't lose sight of the advice to get the best speakers you can - subs can come later, if at all.

Oh, I'm getting the Neumanns. Just humming and hawwing over a path to a sub.

 

[56suited]

Good news / bad news: I have the same shelf and I have a sub that fits there. It's even force-cancelling so you don't need to worry about it rattling the shelf. The problem is they sell for ~$1400 and they don't go very loud. They do go very low. I think you might be able to find one used for about what the Dynaudio costs.


Definitely not the highest priority to get a sub, you can add one anytime. KH120s will give you decent bass in-room. A sub (or two) will just be the icing on the cake.

That might just be it, then. I can't pound music anyway. My wife's a bee itch. 85db is likely the max because all she wants in life is for me to suffer.

...and you get the full effect of the bass, even if it's in such a contained space?