After 9 Months of Research - Rate My First System (Before I Buy It)!

[markstein]

Regarding ProJect: Don't have experience with the turntables myself, however, a dealer told me that you can expect more failures with ProJect than with other brands. Mechanical quality seems to be so lala.

My ProJect Phono Box DS2 B is a good value IMO, however, headroom is somewhat small as with many current units.

My recommendation: Rethink your turntable choice (maybe better a used Technics SL1200 in good condition or some other nice refurbished Dual etc?). Try the phono stage built into the WIIM - maybe you will not see the need for "more". If yes, have a look at Parks Audio Waxwing.

I would, as already mentioned a few times by others, put most money into the speakers. If they are good, there is a chance you will keep them >10 years. There is a saying in Germany: If you buy low-cost, you pay twice ;-)

 

[Galliardist]

Seriously, you took nine months to come up with asking ASR about buying Audioquest cables?

Given the small room, and almost certainly a fixed one person listening position, I'd suggest wall mounting the speakers rather than buying stands. Don't be afraid to have your speakers slightly higher and pointing down slightly to your ears in this setup. Sitting the speakers directly on the desk doesn't work as well.

i'd suggest different options, depending on whether you already have records to play. If you don't, go down the route of adding the turntable later, get the best speakers you can, sort out the digital playback first. You can do plenty of other things for "tactile experience"...

If you do have records to play from day one - and yes, where are you going to store them? - then get a turntable now.

Either way, you have to consider isolation of the turntable as well. If you are putting the turntable and the speakers on the same surface/benchtop and going to play at reasonable volumes, you face feedback as a serious issue and it will be worse with the cheap turntables being recommended. Don't do that: consider how everything is best sited as part of the process. The X1 B might have better isolation than the cheaper decks, but you'd need to buy it to find out. I'd class this as another reason to wall mount the speakers.

 

[Wolf11Man]

Get realistic, skip the turntable, spend the money on speakers. The speaker is what you finaly hear. An audio system is about hearing, not some useless mechanical thing from the past. There is nothing to be improved by an overpriced turntable. No magic to be found. You will use it a few times until you realize that it was a very stupid idea and all it will do is collect dust. Anyway, these expensive turntables are just a hype, successfully keept alive by marketing. From years of playing with these things I can tell you an interesting fact: You will not realize a better sound from a 1500$ turntable with a 200$ pickup, compared to a carefully selected 200$ player with a 250$ needle. Or to say it short and clear: Expensive turntables do not improve the sound, only may look better and please your subjective feeling of value. The sound quality is set by the pickup. You can still jump on the vinyl hype later, but don't get a mediocre stereo because of a gimmick. There have been enough people telling you about cables. There is not 1% sound quality to be found by a cable sold for a thousand $, compared to a well made standard cable. Sorry.

 

[56suited]

I am going to assume you have $3000 US.

Neuman KH120II
WiiM Ultra
Rega Planar 2 / Nd3 MM cartridge

Rega is a hard no. I don't want to be restricted to a Rega ecosystem, and (probably more the honest reason for my response) I am so tired of salespeople in Ireland jamming Regas down my throat just to solve an inventory problem.

 

[56suited]

Where will you be storing the hundreds of LPs (or “vinyls”, as the kids call them) in that tiny space?

I have a 2x4 Kallax and a 2x2 Kallax side-by-side. I have space for 300LPs, and my buy list is only ~150 deep...

...right now.

 

[56suited]

Regarding subwoofers: I recommend to skip it for the beginning. Always can be added later, if required.

Don't start with a single sub but get at least 2, maybe 3 subs and optimize them using multi subwoofer optimizer software. You need DSP capability incl delay.

A single sub makes you unhappy at most locations in the room besides the single location you used for optimization...

I feel that one sub might be overkill, let alone 3... I might just spring for larger speakers, and have to be happy with that.

 

[markstein]

I feel that one sub might be overkill, let alone 3... I might just spring for larger speakers, and have to be happy with that.

Don't misunderstand the large number of subs producing more sound pressure level. Intention is to produce a more even sound pressure level across the room in the bass area, meaning more equal bass over a large area (e.g. left seat and right seat on your sofa).

Meaning as well: better use 2-3 small subs than one large sub.

 

[Theta]

Be kind to the rookie (please). I've been lurking and reading everything I can, putting off my purchases as long as I can bear...and the moment is finally here. First, some details:

Room Details

• ~5.5-6m sq (small office)
• just a couple acoustic treatments from GIK (not currently installed as they are on their way)
• listening distance is ~1-1.25m
• Disregard the stupid speaker positioning in the picture. I used freeware room design software that expired so I can't change it. The speakers will be next to the TV, and I will be sitting on-axis with a very slight toe-in for the speakers.

View attachment 391757

Budget & Other Details

• ~€2,500 - €3,000
• Vinyl, and streaming from Spotify Connect. I want the tactile vinyl experience. Non-negotiable.
• Saving space by going with active studio monitors, and limiting number of components without sacrificing upgrade paths. Also, monitors with dip switches seem more forgiving of placement near walls.
• Upgrade paths cannot include larger spaces. My office is my cave, and my wife asserts dominance over design decisions for the rest of the house. My office has a lock for my own safety.

The System

• Pro-Ject X1 B Turntable (note: getting it price matched to €850 from richersounds.ie)
  • mini-XLR
    • Pro-Ject Phono Box S3 B
      • RCA
        • WiiM Ultra (with HDMI eARC from Samsung Smart TV)
          • RCA
            • Kali IN-5s (not included in the screengrab; I am getting them from Thomann for ~€344/ea)

View attachment 391758
Final Thoughts

• I considered Neuman KH120 II as an option pretty hard, but that is way too evolved a monitor for my rookie capabilities. I also do not have a personal computer to take full advantage. I will covet them from a distance.
• I considered Adam A7V pretty hard as well due to their great warranty and various reviews (here as well as elsewhere).
• I landed on the Kali IN-5 (instead of the IN-8) because of space limitations. Worried I will regret this decision, as I know a sub is out of the question for such a small space, not to mention tricky placement (ex: under the desk is pretty much the only place).
• I contemplated a WiiM Pro Plus and a Topping A70 Pro as an alternative to the WiiM Ultra, and decided against it because of no HDMI eARC.
• Room correction through the WiiM app will have to be good enough, as well as the dip switches on the Kalis. I cannot justify the spend on miniDSP products (but appreciate and respect their quality). Maybe a consideration for the future.

So...tell me what you think. I'm excited to actually buy something, just in time for my birthday. Thank you for embracing rookies in this wild and lovely world of HiFi.

Forget about the sub-woofers. Get some real speakers with 12 inch woofers.

 

[56suited]

I am back down a rabbit hole again, restructuring everything with either the Adam A7V or Neumann KH120 II. More than likely killing the phono stage and repurposing that money to the speakers. I'll come up for air again in a few months. I heard loud and clear that the cables are overkill. Are there recommendations for cables, or specific materials or details I should look for?

 

[56suited]

Forget about the sub-woofers. Get some real speakers with 12 inch woofers.

Ha! I wish. Not for this size space.

 

[Galliardist]

Rega is a hard no. I don't want to be restricted to a Rega ecosystem, and (probably more the honest reason for my response) I am so tired of salespeople in Ireland jamming Regas down my throat just to solve an inventory problem.

What is this “Rega ecosystem?” I have to ask because I am not up to speed on such.

I have a 2x4 Kallax and a 2x2 Kallax side-by-side. I have space for 300LPs, and my buy list is only ~150 deep...

...right now.

And how much are you budgeting for those LPs? Make sure you are being realistic, that’s all.

 

[56suited]

What is this “Rega ecosystem?” I have to ask because I am not up to speed on such.

Well, I must say, now that I think of how that sounded, it's largely off of anecdotal feedback that Rega doesn't play nicely with non-Rega cartridges, phono stages, etc. I think the bigger reason is everybody pushing Rega on me, when I actually liked the sounds of Pro-Ject or Technics better.

And how much are you budgeting for those LPs? Make sure you are being realistic, that’s all.

Every month, I am limiting myself to 3-4 LPs, so ~120EUR. I even have a monthly block in my calendar on the last Friday: dog grooming, vet appointment, record store, garden center. All I want is peace in my life, after 30 years of killing myself in the fin-tech industry and I look forward to this routine.

 

[markstein]

I understand your fascination for LPs. I am the same. Totally non-rational, however, satisfying.

Have a look at Humminguru cleaning machine as well. Is works perfectly. If you buy second hand in a good store, LPs are mostly cleaned and antistatic - good to go. New LPs however are often horribly static and the first thing I do is to wet clean them.

 

[Karmacoma]

I am back down a rabbit hole again, restructuring everything with either the Adam A7V or Neumann KH120 II. More than likely killing the phono stage and repurposing that money to the speakers. I'll come up for air again in a few months. I heard loud and clear that the cables are overkill. Are there recommendations for cables, or specific materials or details I should look for?

For the cables just buy pro stuff from a site like Thomann or else if you're in the eu, it's cheap sturdy and efficient, for example I like the brand sommer cable but there are a lot of good brands, frankly just don't buy random brands on amazon (even there most will be good enough though).

 

[somebodyelse]

Well, I must say, now that I think of how that sounded, it's largely off of anecdotal feedback that Rega doesn't play nicely with non-Rega cartridges, phono stages, etc. I think the bigger reason is everybody pushing Rega on me, when I actually liked the sounds of Pro-Ject or Technics better.

That's mostly rubbish. There are a couple of bits you could argue about:

1. Some Rega cartridges have a 3rd mounting point that can be used with their arms, but isn't strictly necessary. They can still be used with other arms.
2. No vertical adjustment on the arm, so no easy adjustment of VTA or for significant difference in cartridge height. You can buy and fit an aftermarket adjuster like the Origin Live or Michell ones, or use spacers or shims.

 

[DSJR]

(Digs out old dealer hat and puts it on) -

Since great digital can be had for not much these days, I'd also recommend better speakers if possible and scale back on the turntable system unless you have loads of records from 'before' you'd like to play!

Knowing and selling Rega almost since their inception, I'd suggest a Planar 2 with AT VM95E or better, a 95ML myself, as I would an AT LP5 which seems a bit more substantial over the 120X deck at £300, both of these benefitting from a 95ML stylus later on as the improved high frequencies would be noticeable as you're having a digital source too and proper monitors. Project have a deck for all seasons, months, days and hours it seems and the range is so damned vast it's confusing when all of them are more similar than different under a grand or so and the 2M Red cartridge can sound slightly scrappy/lively up top on some pressings in decent digital company. Siting carefully is vital for solid plinth decks like all of these and I'd recommend removing lids when playing, whichever you end up with. I know, I know, we're back to vinyl tweaking - sorry fellas...

Dealer-bought cables, such as the AQ ones, give 50% to the dealer at least, so I'd look to Amazon for far cheaper and just as good-looking alternatives. The Amazon basics RCA cable really is good for example and I've usually gone for smart looking gold plugged HDMI cables for a tenner or less. I use a lot of admittedly homemade Van Damme Pro-Patch and Tour Grade interconnects. EBay though, has UK vendors making them up and selling them for not much more than if you or I bought small quantities of cable and plugs plus postage and made them ourselves! Certainly, I've not had an Amazon bought HDMI cable let me down.

If you wanted posher cables from the Wiim to the active speakers you choose, Worlds Best Cables on Amazon seem to do a nice range using decent cable and plugs and costs aren't high in real terms - much lower than a dealer would charge. I maintain that an Amazon Basics RCA dressed to kill with woven jacket, posh looking plugs and bought from a dealer, could be a couple of hundred quid/dollars/Euros and nobody would bat an eyelid!

By the way, monitors such as KH120 IIs *should* increase your enjoyment of music whatever the format. Not all are balanced to throw upper-midrange details under a magnifying glass and the Neumanns as a speaker breed, don't appear to be (too) strong up top either, so if my beloved ATC memories of old are to be believed, you'll find the music better than ever with luck as I doubt it'd be forced out at you, but simply reproduced without the very slight 'fog blending' that almost all passive speakers have when compared (I need to try some Neumanns at some point, but don't like returning stuff after a paid-for 'loan' as some people do).

Edit - BEVERY CAREFUL if buying a used turntable and a Technics 1200mk2 onwards especially, as it's unlikely the history of said turntable will be stated. Apparently, some can be horrors underneath and there's a fair few that have had 'audiophool' mods done such as posh bearings, aftermarket platters, alterations to the electronics, as well as 'on the road' repairs/lash-ups to hard-worked DJ examples. A well cared for domestic sample is another matter though (back in the early noughties, Superfi in Camden were selling a gold version for six hundred quid or so, a blingy bargain I now feel which would now be triple that price or more for the same thing I reckon )

 

[Smitty2k1]

I don't think anyone mentioned it but I appreciate your CAD diagram of your room

Just chiming in that I have a used Technics 1200 I like and I'm really happy with the Wiim products. I'd probably skip the phono-pre and go straight into the Ultra.

You sure you don't have space for even one little Speedwoofer or SB-1000?

Cheers on retirement!

 

[56suited]

I don't think anyone mentioned it but I appreciate your CAD diagram of your room

Just chiming in that I have a used Technics 1200 I like and I'm really happy with the Wiim products. I'd probably skip the phono-pre and go straight into the Ultra.

You sure you don't have space for even one little Speedwoofer or SB-1000?

Cheers on retirement!

Not retired...just turning down the knob a bit. I was contemplating the Technics SL1500 or 100C (same price) and eventually update to an Ortofon Bronze or Quintet Blue, I just don't know how I feel about how much less quality I am getting compared to the 1210GR for around the same money (even if it doesn't come with a cartridge).

I might have space, in one of the squares of the IKEA Kallax shelves I have (which would place it directly in front of me)...otherwise it would have to go under my desk to the left of my listening seat. Still leaning toward larger speakers and excluding a sub...but also still humming and hawing after having my head spin in this thread.

 

[56suited]

(Digs out old dealer hat and puts it on) -

Since great digital can be had for not much these days, I'd also recommend better speakers if possible and scale back on the turntable system unless you have loads of records from 'before' you'd like to play!

Knowing and selling Rega almost since their inception, I'd suggest a Planar 2 with AT VM95E or better, a 95ML myself, as I would an AT LP5 which seems a bit more substantial over the 120X deck at £300, both of these benefitting from a 95ML stylus later on as the improved high frequencies would be noticeable as you're having a digital source too and proper monitors. Project have a deck for all seasons, months, days and hours it seems and the range is so damned vast it's confusing when all of them are more similar than different under a grand or so and the 2M Red cartridge can sound slightly scrappy/lively up top on some pressings in decent digital company. Siting carefully is vital for solid plinth decks like all of these and I'd recommend removing lids when playing, whichever you end up with. I know, I know, we're back to vinyl tweaking - sorry fellas...

Dealer-bought cables, such as the AQ ones, give 50% to the dealer at least, so I'd look to Amazon for far cheaper and just as good-looking alternatives. The Amazon basics RCA cable really is good for example and I've usually gone for smart looking gold plugged HDMI cables for a tenner or less. I use a lot of admittedly homemade Van Damme Pro-Patch and Tour Grade interconnects. EBay though, has UK vendors making them up and selling them for not much more than if you or I bought small quantities of cable and plugs plus postage and made them ourselves! Certainly, I've not had an Amazon bought HDMI cable let me down.

If you wanted posher cables from the Wiim to the active speakers you choose, Worlds Best Cables on Amazon seem to do a nice range using decent cable and plugs and costs aren't high in real terms - much lower than a dealer would charge. I maintain that an Amazon Basics RCA dressed to kill with woven jacket, posh looking plugs and bought from a dealer, could be a couple of hundred quid/dollars/Euros and nobody would bat an eyelid!

By the way, monitors such as KH120 IIs *should* increase your enjoyment of music whatever the format. Not all are balanced to throw upper-midrange details under a magnifying glass and the Neumanns as a speaker breed, don't appear to be (too) strong up top either, so if my beloved ATC memories of old are to be believed, you'll find the music better than ever with luck as I doubt it'd be forced out at you, but simply reproduced without the very slight 'fog blending' that almost all passive speakers have when compared (I need to try some Neumanns at some point, but don't like returning stuff after a paid-for 'loan' as some people do).

Thank you - very helpful! I'm back and forth between the Adam A7V and Neumann KH 120, primarily for the convenience of the settings on the back of the Adams, as well as the 5-year warranty. And roughly 200EUR less for a pair.

Sage advice for the cables - thank you very much!

 

[Multicore]

Be kind to the rookie (please). I've been lurking and reading everything I can, putting off my purchases as long as I can bear...and the moment is finally here.

Well done on your presentation! And welcome to our party of shuffling nerds.

As for my rating, I'll give you 2 out of a possible 4 stars.

The biggest problem here is the room's honking bass modes. What's your solution there? Your GIK panels won't help that. How do you measure them? Does the WiiM Ultra provide EQ? I think WiiM added some kind of room EQ and I have a Pro so I should know but I don't.

If you're budgeting up to 3000, why Kali IN-5? Well-engineered speakers your top priority and in your small room you'll need ones with near-field integration and very smooth radiation. Not sure what to suggest until we renegotiate the next items on my list.

That TT is overpriced and yuck. Either get a new AT-LP120XUSB or if you want to spend more money on a TT, a used SL-1200. We've had this punch up about three times here recently and the low-mass belt-drive brigade took a pasting every time 8^}} The AT-LP120XUSB is truly awsome and you will enjoy it very much for sure so I suggest you save money with that and put it into speakers.

You'd be amazed who uses the Art PrecisionPre Phono around here (read this thread) and the systems they use it in, myself included. Save money here and put it into speakers.

AudioQuest cables?! You come to ASR asking for our rating of your choice of AudioQuest cables? The cheek of it :P

Back to the speakers. In such a small room I hesitate to recommend larger woofers. I use 5.5" in a study larger than that and I'm ok with it. But many people here are bass heads and insist on sub 40 extension. It's up to you. But it's tricky in that room and there are pros and cons. I would rather you start with getting the "best" mid-size boxes you can afford. For example, can we get you into a pair of Neumann KH 150? If, after living with that until you have saved up some money for upgrades, you feel sure you desire another octave on your bottom, add a Neumann sub. That Kali is a great budget option if you're really on bugdet but you're not.

And I took a whole star off for the nested indentation of your bullet list. You made me get up and go get my lap top to just read it.