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AES Paper Digest: Do Audio Op-amps Sound Different?

Discussion in 'Audio Reference Library' started by amirm, Apr 13, 2018.

  1. Wombat

    Wombat Major Contributor

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    Critical(analytical) is the antithesis of emotional. Emotional enjoyment is more the norm. Psychopaths would be an exception but there must be degrees of variance out there.
     
  2. oivavoi

    oivavoi Addicted to Fun and Learning

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    TBH I think the bolded sentence is largely a myth. I have read studies from psychology which show that people with critical thinking skills have higher scores than others on emotionality, empaty etc... Maybe I can cough it up later. But now I really need to get back to work and stop talking on ASR! :)
     
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  3. Wombat

    Wombat Major Contributor

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    I would like to see them. In my experience people who limit their range and depth of thinking tend to live socially easier lives.

    Enjoyment is often confused with rewarding and satisfying. The last two terms are expectation conformational.


    article-11395-thumb.jpg

    ;)
     
    Last edited: Apr 16, 2018
  4. Arnold Krueger

    Arnold Krueger Active Member

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    Interesting. My new tablet rejected it an unknown format fiile, but my desktop is happy with it and so am I. The unredacted version as it were. Thanks!

    Have you read https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...-amps-sound-different.2625/page-3#post-75191?

    The item of interest is "Average RMS Power".
     
  5. Arnold Krueger

    Arnold Krueger Active Member

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    The post above seems to have changed the question.

    From its wording the apparent intent of the bolded text was to describe the consequences of a certain activity. but not necessarily to comment on the thinking power of the person performing the activity.

    When I listen critically for technical artifacts. I very often briefly lose track of what the music sounds like or even what it is. IME Listening for pleasure and listening for subtle technical artifacts can be mutually exclusive at a point in time, but they can still be practiced independently.

    It is all about using the right tool for the task at hand!
     
  6. Cosmik

    Cosmik Major Contributor

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    I'd bet that most non-audiophiles have never thought of listening for pleasure as a "task"...:)
     
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  7. svart-hvitt

    svart-hvitt Addicted to Fun and Learning

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    I tried once. But nobody wanted to talk about Modern Talking.
     
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  8. Arnold Krueger

    Arnold Krueger Active Member

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    I find listening for pleasure and listening diagnostically equally pleasurable. I generally enjoy life!
     
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  9. amirm

    amirm Founder/Admin CFO (Chief Fun Officer) Staff Member

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    Let me comment on that since I am clearly in that position.

    To apply my training to hear artifacts requires extra energy and concentration just like any task you focus on. All I have to do is turn that off and all is well. I can enjoy content with fair bit of artifacts and still be OK.

    However, there is a threshold above which, I don't need that extra energy and the artifacts do interfere. Last night for example was watching a bootleg version of John Oliver's monolog. Whatever they had done compression wise, was causing the vocals to exhibit distortion that i am quite familiar with (vocals are actually quite difficult to encode with "music" codecs). At first it bothered the heck out of me. I searched for the official/better version but could not find it. So I watched the long episode that way. I must say I would get into the content enough to forget about the artifacts but then it would come to surface from time to time.

    US DBS radio such as XM bother the heck out of me because the artifacts are hugely audible to me. It is suffering to listen to it.

    Fortunately the general level of artifacts in typical online content is low enough as to this not being a barrier. I can for example listen and enjoy tons of Youtube music videos. In my car I stream Amazon Prime and it too is very satisfying. On the other hand digital FM talk shows do have sufficient artifacts to bother me.

    So I say what you say is not the case most of the time given the state of fidelity around us.
     
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  10. Jakob1863

    Jakob1863 Senior Member

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    But that isn´t related to the Op-Study we were talking about or am i missing the point?
     
  11. restorer-john

    restorer-john Active Member

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    With AI, we might be able to train our instruments and turn them into humans...

    One day when your new 2025 AP system 'AI Extreme' speaks to you and says 'Sorry Amir, you simply cannot hear, letalone measure what I can. I think I need a new human operator'

    The machines are coming...
     
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  12. Arnold Krueger

    Arnold Krueger Active Member

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    The relationship is via a post on the thread about a DBT that triggered speculation about the cause of positive results.
     
  13. Wombat

    Wombat Major Contributor

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    Separated activities? - except for the mental crosstalk. Once aware of other influences can you block their subliminal intrusion?

    What influence does 'enjoyment of life' in general have to do specifically with the applied analytical discernment/discrimination or enjoyment of a particular activity. o_O

    General questions prompted by the post.
     
    Last edited: Apr 18, 2018
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  14. jan.didden

    jan.didden Member

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    Sorry to barge in like this at such a late state, but isn't there a circuit error in the very first diagram in the very first post??

    Jan
     
  15. Arnold Krueger

    Arnold Krueger Active Member

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    Whatever it is, I believe the shcematic on this forum is a good rendition of the cited AES paper. The other relevant authority may be the thesis that is cited later on in the thread. But I agree, I've long questioned whether it would work. Seems like lines are missing or drawn wrong.
     
  16. jan.didden

    jan.didden Member

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    Actually, reading the paper again, I think they DID have it correct. That 1st stage is NOT a 40dB signal gain stage, but that particular configuration increases the error (distortion) by 40dB. I will delete my previous post.

    Jan
     
  17. Jakob1863

    Jakob1863 Senior Member

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    Yep, it´s just an implementation of the trick that was introduced to enable THD measurements well below -100 dBr; signal isn´t amplified, distortion is.
     
    Last edited: Apr 19, 2018
  18. jan.didden

    jan.didden Member

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    So what is the considered opinion here of this test? Are the results relevant to our perception of audio quality?
    In the 'Discussions' paragraph, the authors concede that the opamps were forced to work with much higher distortion than in normal operational circumstances (+40dB, 100x as much).
    But that's as far as they got, except for 'The assumption is...', '.. it is possible...', ' ...consider the possibility..'. Sounds not very convincing, but maybe I am missing something.

    Jan
     
  19. tomelex

    tomelex Addicted to Fun and Learning Patreon Donor

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    Hi Jan, welcome here. I thought the test was rather amateurish myself. Sort of seventies era stuff when integrated circuit op amps were new guys on the block.
     
  20. Wombat

    Wombat Major Contributor

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    A simple learning exercise in test methodology and paper presentation, I feel.
     
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