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AES meta analysis on audibility of hi-res

I don't doubt that Meyer and Moran has its problems, but depending on what your objectives are, it did some things right. You want to find out if there is, in the absolute, an audible difference between RB and hi-res? Yes, use one system. Use highly-trained listeners. Want to find out how much it matters? Use a broad spectrum of experienced listeners -- audiophiles, studio pros, audio engineering students with fresh, trained young ears. Use a broad variety of systems from studio monitoring systems to audiophile-approved high end. Run a lot of trials. If, in the end, very few people from any group listening to any system could differentiate any of the files (not just the up-sampled ones that shouldn't have been in the test) from each other, you've learned that it doesn't matter much. It may not meet scientific rigor. It proves nothing. But it sure seems to indicate that we're counting angels on the head of a pin. With all its flaws, it should have shut down the audiophile hyperbole around hi-rez like stepping on a hose.

But of course it didn't. In that world, the most rigorous science that disagrees with conventional wisdom is flawed, and no science at all that supports the tenants of the religion is new gospel.

Tim


That has been my take on M&M and other similar tests and my own tests. If there are differences, they sure are small, difficult to find, and disappear if the tiniest thing is off. So how important can they be? The answer is obvious. The difference in SD and HDTV is not difficult to perceive. The difference in HD and normal digital audio......if there much of anything at all to it, the idea would hardly be controversial or disputed here some 30 years later. Night and day differences? Bull carp. More like the difference between 10 minutes prior to sunset and nine minutes 45 seconds before.....if that.

In the very questionable AES meta-analysis they posit that with good gear, and trained listeners and appropriate material hires is perceived 60% of the time. Even that were it true is not that big a deal. It means 3 out of 5 times if you are well trained you can pick out the better source. Now considering what chance guessing would be then how significant is that for simple musical enjoyment?
 
That has been my take on M&M and other similar tests and my own tests. If there are differences, they sure are small, difficult to find, and disappear if the tiniest thing is off. So how important can they be? The answer is obvious. The difference in SD and HDTV is not difficult to perceive. The difference in HD and normal digital audio......if there much of anything at all to it, the idea would hardly be controversial or disputed here some 30 years later. Night and day differences? Bull carp. More like the difference between 10 minutes prior to sunset and nine minutes 45 seconds before.....if that.

In the very questionable AES meta-analysis they posit that with good gear, and trained listeners and appropriate material hires is perceived 60% of the time. Even that were it true is not that big a deal. It means 3 out of 5 times if you are well trained you can pick out the better source. Now considering what chance guessing would be then how significant is that for simple musical enjoyment?

For musical enjoyment? IMO, musical enjoyment and critical listening are at odds. Granted, as a musician, my form of critical listening is different. I listen for arrangements, chord inversions, melodic and harmonic structures, that harmony part buried in the mix. It is a tool, and when I can't turn it off to listen for the joy of listening, I consider it a detriment. But my form of critical listening has MUCH more to do with the music than listening for artifacts, or even the reproduction of the last little bits of detail. I'm still not convinced of the latter; I'm not sure that last bit of detail is not an artifact, or the absence of one.

Of course this could all just be my own set of biases. I have a large library of CDs burned to hard drives. I want to believe they're good enough. And so I do. :)

Tim
 
That has been my take on M&M and other similar tests and my own tests. If there are differences, they sure are small, difficult to find, and disappear if the tiniest thing is off. So how important can they be? The answer is obvious. The difference in SD and HDTV is not difficult to perceive. The difference in HD and normal digital audio......if there much of anything at all to it, the idea would hardly be controversial or disputed here some 30 years later. Night and day differences? Bull carp. More like the difference between 10 minutes prior to sunset and nine minutes 45 seconds before.....if that.

In the very questionable AES meta-analysis they posit that with good gear, and trained listeners and appropriate material hires is perceived 60% of the time. Even that were it true is not that big a deal. It means 3 out of 5 times if you are well trained you can pick out the better source. Now considering what chance guessing would be then how significant is that for simple musical enjoyment?

I do not fundamentally disagree. The difference in audio today is at best subtle, unlike SD vs. HD video. But, audio has improved hugely in my lifetime, successively solving most of the biggest problems one by one. So, further improvement is pretty much down to lesser problems and subtleties. Hard work once again for diminishing returns. But, many audiophiles love nothing better than to argue the subtleties.

BTW, most people cannot see a difference between HD and UHD("4K") video at normal distances, either. So, the industry is gradually adding other more subtle enhancements to the UHD package, like HDR and larger color space, plus using new better technology in monitors like OLED, micro dots, enhanced local dimming LCD, etc. Together, it will add up to an improvement, though probably not the big jump that occurred from SD to HD and DVD to BD. Although, even there, it took awhile before HD was really better in most every way. Early HD sets were often terrible, and older SD CRT sets were still preferred for awhile by video afficianados.

All I can say is hi rez cannot hurt, except to gobble up space on my 52TBs of NAS storage. Most recording engineers candidly feel it sounds closer to the mike feed, in addition to offering more dynamic headroom via lower noise in all the processing stages a recording must go through, due to greater bit depth. Many also feel that 176/192k or 352/384k is subtly superior to 88/96k or that DSD64,128,256, etc. is better than any of those.

Yes, no night/day. But, I "think" I hear consistent subtle differences, many in imaging, depth, dimensionality, etc. I believe there is decent evidence to suggest hi rez is freer of filter artifacts caused by a-d (preringing, etc.) in the recording and d-a (postringing, etc.) on playback. Audibly? Yes, I think so. OTOH, I do not think we hear the ultrasonic frequencies in hi rez as part of the musical tonality. But, I admit I am intrigued by Bob Stuart's hypothesis that there are more accurate timing cues in hi rez, a subtlety perhaps.

No matter. It happens that I embrace Mch. And, that just comes as hi rez in all the formats in which it is available. That is fine by me. And, I do not need super ultra sampling rates.
 
BTW, most people cannot see a difference between HD and UHD("4K") video at normal distances, either. So, the industry is gradually adding other more subtle enhancements to the UHD package, like HDR and larger color space, plus using new better technology in monitors like OLED, micro dots, enhanced local dimming LCD, etc. Together, it will add up to an improvement, though probably not the big jump that occurred from SD to HD and DVD to BD. Although, even there, it took awhile before HD was really better in most every way. Early HD sets were often terrible, and older SD CRT sets were still preferred for awhile by video afficianados.
The analogy is exactly the same for audio, as for video - old TV sets were tiny and it was good for the viewing; if you went up close to the screen the image was dreadful, of course. Improve the resolution of the technology, and you can make the screen bigger without the display artifacts being too obvious - the better the quality of the image the more one can enlarge the perceived viewing area, while maintaining a decent illusion.

And so for audio. Conventional playback is reasonable until the volume is turned up, and then it all falls apart - OK for "rough" R&R, and pop, but hopeless for anything else. The effective resolution has to be there at realistic volumes, but very few systems are capable of that - refinement of everything that matters is the only real answer; rather than adding layers of greasepaint and fancy lighting in the hope that somehow what's happening on the stage might fool one ...
 
And so for audio. Conventional playback is reasonable until the volume is turned up, and then it all falls apart - OK for "rough" R&R, and pop, but hopeless for anything else. The effective resolution has to be there at realistic volumes, but very few systems are capable of that - refinement of everything that matters is the only real answer; rather than adding layers of greasepaint and fancy lighting in the hope that somehow what's happening on the stage might fool one ...

I have the opposite opinion. It is hearing that falls apart with enough volume. One experience that convinced me of this was working around some large engines. V16 methane powered engines. There were mufflers on the exhaust outdoors. Inside the structure that housed them the sound level was 105-110 db A-weighted. Cacophony was the word invented to describe this sound. Those old engines had to be adjusted for mixture and timing manually on a periodic basis. Without hearing protection you simply couldn't tell what was happening. Wear hearing protection that knocked those levels down by 30 db or so, and suddenly a wealth of detail and subtlety were there to be heard. You could make very fine adjustments to get the engine purring to near perfection. You also could recognize from details in the sound when various parts were starting to wear. I have other experiences that support this idea, but those engines were such a jarring difference as to be shocking at first.

I don't think it is any coincidence that great mixing and mastering guys work around 80 db and less. That is the range your hearing is most sensitive, subtle and discriminating. A system that somehow sounds overly refined at high volume is probably not being accurate to sound as it naturally is perceived at elevated levels. It may be a preference, it may be more enjoyable, it may be highly advisable, but it likely is not high fidelity.

It shouldn't be surprising that any sense pushed near its limits will begin to fall apart. One looking at the overall mechanism would expect nothing else. I don't see any way to "up the resolution" to make truly loud reproduced music sound nice. How do you think that would work, how do you think that is achieved?

I do recognize that gear with limited headroom will itself begin to stress before your own hearing does. Such a problem is rather diminished with quality modern gear. Not always eliminated, but I doubt it is really a resolution issue. Pro audio gear tends to have better and ample headroom vs consumer gear I might as well mention.
 
you say headroom do you use headphones when listen
Sometimes though mostly over speakers . Either way additional clean headroom above typical sounds levels is a genuine benefit.
 
A lot of ' turning it up and it sounds bad' is to do with the limits of your room.

I read a few years ago that the extra range 20 kHz + of hires can be detrimental as it too can cause 'issue' when these higher frequencies are let lose in the listening environment.

Any truth to that?
 
I have the opposite opinion. It is hearing that falls apart with enough volume.

...

It shouldn't be surprising that any sense pushed near its limits will begin to fall apart. One looking at the overall mechanism would expect nothing else. I don't see any way to "up the resolution" to make truly loud reproduced music sound nice. How do you think that would work, how do you think that is achieved?

I do recognize that gear with limited headroom will itself begin to stress before your own hearing does. Such a problem is rather diminished with quality modern gear. Not always eliminated, but I doubt it is really a resolution issue. Pro audio gear tends to have better and ample headroom vs consumer gear I might as well mention.
As with everything, there are always degrees. Obviously with something violently noisy, like those car engines, a different method is needed for listening to them - hence ear muffs ... but, that is still, "real" sound :p ...

What I'm talking about is comparing the impact of live, unamplified music with reproduction of same - a couple of years ago I deliberately went to the back of the PA speakers being used for a big band playing in a tent - so, I was literally a few yards away from a large collection of brass instruments, bass guitar, and drums, all going for it. This sound was intense, but fantastic to experience - by comparison, what was coming out of the PA speakers was total crap of course, a heavily mutilated and squashed version, with most of the treble completely crippled - this was an exaggerated version of what most audio systems do once some volume is asked for.

The "upping the resolution" is done by making sure the artifacts are not audible - same idea as for video artifacts not being visible. The problem for most people is that they are so used to audio system artifacts that they expect, nay, require them to be there, as a sign that the system is "working properly" - the term used by some people to describe competent systems is "effortless" - because the SPLs can just go up and up with no obvious signs that anything is changing, in the conventional audio sense - the subjective impression is that the sound is becoming more intense - not, louder ...
 
One experience that convinced me of this was working around some large engines. V16 methane powered engines.
What were those engines powering?
 
Electrical generators, most likely. Around here they're used for cogeneration, where a large premise / business needs a significant amount of heat as well as electricity. For example, hospitals, aged care homes, and swimming pool complexes. There's one at the local refuse dump too, run on the methane generated by the decomposing trash.
 
A lot of ' turning it up and it sounds bad' is to do with the limits of your room.

I read a few years ago that the extra range 20 kHz + of hires can be detrimental as it too can cause 'issue' when these higher frequencies are let lose in the listening environment.

Any truth to that?
I doubt it. Most speakers do no go very far into ultrasonic response, for starters. But, some think that ultrasonics can sometimes cause issues with your electronics, bringing intermodulation issues down into the audible band. But, I have seen or heard no clear proof of that.
 
High volume low pressure blowers. Gas was from a waste anaerobic digestion tank plus gas from a nearby landfill. Heat from cooling them was used to keep digestion tanks around 105 degrees F.
Since this is ASR could you supply me horsepower and torque spec's on those power plants. Might make an interesting power plant for Blastolene's next creation. :eek:
jay1.jpg

 
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Perfect! Thanks Ray ;)
I'll pass that along to Randy and the crew at,
http://blastolene.com/index.html
Shameless shilling for Blastolene. :oops:

Yes, the link Ray provided is about it. The engines I worked with were Cats though an older version. Redline was 2000 rpm. We ran them between 1400 and 1800 rpm most of the time.

While my Soundlabs might need a generator powered by something like those engines, they were used for high volume, low pressure blowers. Coolant was used to keep a waste digester tank at 105 degrees F (which is where the methane came from). One neat thing on the older installation was you engaged a mechanical friction clutch with a lever after you started them up. Also notice the thermal efficiency listed in that link of Ray's.
 
If you're going to do the big engine thing, then you might as well have fun with it ...

 
Or like this ...

 
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