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AES 2025 Paper: New targets for the B&K 5128 GRAS 45CA-10

No, I am illustrating a point with a metaphor. Do you read what I write before you respond to my messages, or is it free association?
I read what you wrote completely. It was an ill attempt to put down research and standards in speakers, coming from someone with no experience in that domain. It demonstrated lack of high level understanding underlying research in both domains, and hence, is responsible for randomization of headphone testing we see today.
 
What you post is what is called FUD.
Amir, if you honestly believe that, you really need to take a deep breath and think things through. I have been fighting against mysticism and pseudoscience in the headphone space since you were demurring to take a side on the sound of amplifiers. If I say something, I believe it, and, with the exception of these last two messages - which I assure you I won't be repeating, this is demeaning to both of us - when I post here, I do my level best to remain in good faith and polite tone.
"Do we even know if this or that is true?"
I did not say that, but I applaud your fanfiction writing.
Next time explain your own position before positing it as a way to create
Your motivated illiteracy is not an issue with my prose. My prose has many issues, but only you seem to pathologically read things like this into it.
It was an ill attempt to put down research and standards in speakers, coming from someone with no experience in that domain.
No, it wasn't, and if you read it that way, I may well have been wrong in the many, many cases where I have gone to bat against the idea that you are stupid.
It demonstrated lack of high level understanding underlying research in both domains, and hence, is responsible for randomization of headphone testing we see today.
Since appeals to authority are your preference in this area, please ask Sean for his candid thoughts on me next time you hang out.

I generally do my best to engage on here with references to the pertinent literature, and it would appear by the ratio of my likes and posts that at least some people like it. I've been generally quite polite to you across a lot of vitriol which, frankly, I don't even understand the origins of, for years now. Your weird obsession with the idea that I am trying to undermine the work of the man who is both my idol and a personal friend is frankly getting sad at this point, and as this post shows, I have run out of patience with you, so I suppose that's the last I'll have to say here. Enjoy the last word, I know that's a fondness of yours.
 
Amir, if you honestly believe that, you really need to take a deep breath and think things through. I have been fighting against mysticism and pseudoscience in the headphone space since you were demurring to take a side on the sound of amplifiers. If I say something, I believe it, and, with the exception of these last two messages - which I assure you I won't be repeating, this is demeaning to both of us - when I post here, I do my level best to remain in good faith and polite tone.
Your tone was not only not polite, but quite insulting ("free association?"). Nor do I believe for a moment your pretenses here. The moment you became a paid consultant to headphones.com, your approach changed, leading to the very randomization I speak of. As such, I don't consider you a neutral participant here. And hold you directly responsible for some of the mess we are in right now.

Regardless, explain to me what your position is regarding using B&K 5128 and making up targets for it as folks like headphones.com have done in the face of this research. That, would be useful to read.

Since appeals to authority are your preference in this area
Still think you are being polite???

No, I am not appealing to authority. I have put Harman's research into use across hundreds of speakers and headphones that I have measured, tuned and listened to. I find the research to be highly practical and is some of the best we can do. Both areas of research let us narrow our searches for speakers and headphones to a few which the buyer can then evaluate to purchase.

What others do is to resort to randomization of measurements as to then be able to justify any random subjective opinion as being valid. You have directly contributed to this and hence my displeasure with your opinions in this matter.
 
Your tone was not only not polite, but quite insulting ("free association?").
Oh heavens, here I am getting baited in. I specifically and precisely delineated that I was being impolite to you in those last two posts because you have worn out the last of the considerable good faith I've tried to extend to you.
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The moment you became a paid consultant to headphones.com, your approach changed, leading to the very randomization I speak of.
Amir, I wish I was that Machiavellian, because I could have been making so much more fucking money. I have done precisely whatever the fuck I wanted to in the entirety of the time you have known me, with the sole exception of not giving you a piece of my mind, which is what has changed presently.

Regardless, explain to me why your position is regarding using B&K 5128 and making up targets for it as folks like headphones.com have done in the face of this reserarch. That, would be useful to read.
I have - in fact, I spent two threads tolerating you calling my attempt to have an earnest dialog "FUD". As said, you have exhausted my goodwill. If you'd like to learn about my positions, feel free to go back and read about them. If not, feel free to go fuck yourself.
 
I have - in fact, I spent two threads tolerating you calling my attempt to have an earnest dialog "FUD".
Two threads? This research just came out. I am asking what justification there is for continued attempt to overlay 5128 target based on Harman's original research. The data in this paper says that correlation cannot be established as it is headphone specific. You have an opinion on this or not?
 
Your motivated illiteracy is not an issue with my prose. My prose has many issues, but only you seem to pathologically read things like this into it.
I don't think Amir intended to be personally rude, just direct about the matters at hand and his stance. But you did take it that way it seems and the above response is rude as, veiled behind creative language.
considerable good faith I've tried to extend to you
May I suggest it's Amir that has extended that to you, not verbally necessarily, but by allowing you to post on his forum. I mean you've been free to post openly here yes?
go fuck yourself
Maybe take a step back here and a deep breath? This thread has devolved quite quickly into something that is not a constructive discussion.


JSmith
 
I am not an expert in this, so please excuse me if I miss the subject at hand.

Shouldn't the standard target curve be a discussion between 'Free Field' vs 'Diffuse Field' on whichever HAT have been chosen being the standard?
 
Shouldn't the standard target curve be a discussion between 'Free Field' vs 'Diffuse Field' on whichever HAT have been chosen being the standard?
The original research examined these and found them to not correlate well with listener preference.
 
The original research examined these and found them to not correlate well with listener preference.
Very understandable, my friends find my KEF speakers boring, but I find myself wanting to give them a hug after listening through an album on them.

My view is this:
  • Speakers with flat anechoic response = good
  • Speakers with -0.5 db/oct tilt in-room response = good
  • Headphones following Free Field response = Speakers with -0.5 db/oct tilt = good
Correct me if I am wrong here.
 
I read what you wrote completely. It was an ill attempt to put down research and standards in speakers, coming from someone with no experience in that domain. It demonstrated lack of high level understanding underlying research in both domains, and hence, is responsible for randomization of headphone testing we see today.
I thought it was quite the opposite so I find it surprising that you ended up with this interpretation.
You were the one who initially brought up the comparison with speakers highlighting solely "anechoic on-axis frequency response", so Mad's response felt more like a "you know that there is more to speakers than just that".

As a professional loudspeaker designer and full time audio engineer I can attest that Mad is not talking from a "lack high level understanding", from the numerous conversations we have had on that subject.
In fact, he's probably the first person to bury himself in literature if he feels like his understanding of a certain topic is not adequate.

Btw, to my knowledge he is not officially affiliated nor being paid by headphones.com anymore
 
I am not going to create an all new curve. But rather, consider a boost in 3 to 8 kHz which seems to be common in all of them.
Ah, you're not gonna overlay a new curve over the top like you mentioned in your review? Instead you're gonna be listening to the headphones and deciding if you want to boost 3-8kHz by a certain amount each time & you may rest at a different boost level each time perhaps, and praps even zero boost there for some headphones? I suppose that works because the level of required boost there is unknown, so it makes sense to judge that area subjectively.

I suppose it doesn't change the fact there's been a lot of love for the Harman Curve we currently use, so boosting that 3-8kHz could make some headphones overly bright I reckon. Given that danger I actually think it would make sense to also experiment with reducing 1.3-3kHz because that area is showing a consistent reduction in the study too, and that would be synergistic with increasing 3-8kHz because decreasing 1.3-3kHz will make the headphone a bit less bright & therefore make the 3-8kHz boost more palatable on overall tonality - so I reckon it's important to decrease the 1.3-3kHz area too, and maybe even bake that specific change into the curve because it seems common on all of them. I think I'd bake in the 1.3-3kHz change and keep the 3-8kHz area subjectively flexible, I think I'll try that sometime on my own headphones.
 
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Btw, to my knowledge he is not officially affiliated nor being paid by headphones.com anymore
This is correct, I haven't been contracted there for a while now.
 
I guess he forgot to update his profile here then...
You'll have to forgive me, normally my forum signature gets updated right after my LinkedIn, but this time it slipped through the cracks.
 
Admittedly a lot of this stuff is over my head, but this is something I've seen people on Reddit talk about, that the Harman target can't be simply transposed to other fixtures. That part makes some sense to me, though it does mean what Amir, oratory1990 etc. have been doing up to this point has kind of been wrong since they're not using the same ear the target was derived on, no?

I do wonder why the original headphone used for the 2018 study wasn't used here, wouldn't that make it much simpler?

What's most interesting to me about this paper is that some headphones are very consistent between the two HATS measurement fixtures while others—namely, the two used as the "playback" headphones in this study—seemingly vary a lot. Again I'm not super well-versed in this stuff, the last few months have been a rollercoaster of reading and learning for me, but if the more accurate ear is showing a big change vs. the older system, this strikes me as an indicator of bad design because the headphone should aim to be more consistent regardless of the head it's placed on, right?
 
I do wonder why the original headphone used for the 2018 study wasn't used here, wouldn't that make it much simpler?
That used an in-house created pinna that is not commercially available.
 
That part makes some sense to me, though it does mean what Amir, oratory1990 etc. have been doing up to this point has kind of been wrong since they're not using the same ear the target was derived on, no?
As you see in this research, the difference is slight and only impacts high frequencies which i put far less emphasis on.

I adopted this target after much listening tests and found it reasonable to my ears. Note that I do not call the target Harman.
 
That used an in-house created pinna that is not commercially available.
I wasn't referring to the ear, but the headphone. I think the 2018 study used an AKG K712 Pro, and I wonder why that wasn't included in this study.
As you see in this research, the difference is slight and only impacts high frequencies which i put far less emphasis on.
I'm not sure I agree with characterizing the difference as "slight."
I adopted this target after much listening tests and found it reasonable to my ears. Note that I do not call the target Harman.
When you say you adopted this target, which are you referring to?
 
What's most interesting to me about this paper is that some headphones are very consistent between the two HATS measurement fixtures while others—namely, the two used as the "playback" headphones in this study—seemingly vary a lot. Again I'm not super well-versed in this stuff, the last few months have been a rollercoaster of reading and learning for me, but if the more accurate ear is showing a big change vs. the older system, this strikes me as an indicator of bad design because the headphone should aim to be more consistent regardless of the head it's placed on, right?

This is the most important take away info here indeed.

That the transfer function between different fixtures is inconsistent between different headphones, and that as a result finding a transposition for the Harman target to the 5128 by using the average transfer function of a cohort of improperly selected headphones can be quite problematic is nothing new, Sean Olive among others made a few presentations on that subject a while back. The box plot graphs are just the logical conclusion of that problem.

Now whether it's between different fixtures, or different individuals, we should expect a desirable target to vary at the eardrum between them, as different anatomies impact the resulting SPL at the eardrum, which is why it's probably a good way to distinguish between what belongs the "desirable" inter-individual variation and the "non desirable" one (I guess you've already read about HRTF maps for example ?).

That some headphones have a tendency to produce more undesirable variation is well known and well characterised already - for example Rtings has been measuring bass response on real humans for years already, and we have plenty of articles on AES on the subject (including from Harman). This is a part of the spectrum where an individual's anatomy should have a lot less influence over what a desirable target is than at higher frequencies.

It's harder to know whether the variation observed at higher frequencies is of the desirable type or not, this is an area where there isn't a lot of publications. But what can be done in that range rather easily is to test a pair of headphones on the same fixture for coupling effects (ex by compressing the pads). If the resulting frequency changes a lot in specific bands, it's already a pretty good indication that these headphones are likely to exhibit a lot of undesirable inter-individual variation since they can't even deliver a constant response on the same fixture. It would be better to determine what the ideal inter-individual variation should be for a cohort of individuals, then measure in situ a number of headphones and plot which ones seem to translate from one individual to another in a more desirable way, but this seems quite hard to do well and I am not aware of a lot of publications on that subject.

Now as we've discussed a while back in this forum, it's actually not that hard to find a good translation between Harman's rig and the 5128 provided one uses, as you pointed out, only headphones that we know are likely (at least up to a few kHz), to translate well from one fixture to another in a desirable fashion. And if headphones that can't do so then show a "different difference" between their response and the target obtained, it should be considered a sign that the headphones' engineering leaves something to be desired, and neither be an indictment against a particular fixture nor the sign that getting a half-decent target translation, at least up to around 3-4kHz, is impossible.

Basically, the problem here is not the 5128, it's the DCA XO :

Screenshot 2025-10-17 at 20.58.15.png


Active systems used in some headphones are soon going to make this a moot point anyway. Feedback systems used in ANC headphones already compensate to some degree for inconsistencies in fit / leakage / impedance because they are, essentially, error loops (the better designed ANC closed back over-ears tend to over perform by a wide margin passive closed backs in Rtings' consistency measurements for example), but they were traditionally limited to frequencies below 800Hz, and in some situations (like IEMs) were a double edged sword. Companies like Bose and Apple - and possibly others, and I hope that Harman will soon join them (they've started to publish articles to that effect), have already managed to extend the range over which they can use active systems to predict the in situ response at the eardrum up to several kHz, but for now I believe that it's limited to IEMs (I have not been able to measure the Bose CustomTune over-ears to understand what they're doing), and while I can test to some extent whether or not these systems are successful with some DIY experiments, I can't make a comprehensive evaluation, so some doubt remains whether or not they've done a good job.

If indeed the prediction is correct, designing targets for different fixtures becomes increasingly easy as the HPTF effects are minimised, but anatomically derived "desirable" differences may still require a different target otherwise (among other factors that may still call for different targets).
 
I'm not sure I agree with characterizing the difference as "slight."
Well, you need to. The measurements I have shown from the research are highly smoothed down to 1/2 octave. In contrast we use 1/20 octave for speaker measurements. The high level of smoothing is kind of needed to even out the response changes due to internal reflections. I don't do that. See my measurement again:

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If I breath on the headphone, that response changes. As such, you need to learn to put less priority in that region of measurement and apply judgement. In that regard, it would not change things much if you raised the dashed target line a few dB higher. You still have to guess and then use equalization to verify.

The same is true of low frequencies where fitment on the fixture becomes harder (and much harder on B&K 5128). In the above example, that bass response can be the red, green or something else when you wear it.

The most reliable part of the measurement then is above bass to lower treble.

Net, net, in the context of headphone measurements, there is variability and what a highly smooth target says has to be taken with some degree of reservation.

Even in general acoustics, difference of a few dBs, while quite audible, is still acceptable. From CEA/CTA-2034:

"All measurements have errors, including measurements in anechoic chambers and outdoors, so it is important to validate your own techniques by comparing the results to a measurement made in a free field environment. A good way to do this is to submit one of your speakers to a recognized testing laboratory. An agreement of ± 1.5 dB is considered to be good."
 
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