Advice please for the next step from Rotel Arcam Wiim Elac from confused newbie?

[Needorwant]

Hi everyone thanks for allowing me in. I have a Wiim Pro plus, Rotel A11 Tribute, Arcam CDS50 streamer and CD player and Elac Unifi Ref speakers. I like watching confusing Hifi reviewing videos on Youtube. So if anyone can guide me forwards I will be very grateful.
The issue I have is now I have been amazed at the sound from my modest setup I just wonder if it could get even better? Perhaps if the CD player didn't have a built in streamer I would be content with the Wiim but I believe the sound from the Arcam is a bit more attractive to me, however there are some issues. I occasionally notice small jumps and sometimes pausing. I have been in contact with Arcam although the help given wasn't all that useful. I am trying Tidal along with Qobuz I have used for many months. I went from the Musiclife app (much criticised) to Mconnect lite but I wonder if the CD player isn't fully designed as a perfect streamer ( Arcam literally wrote that in an email). The Arcam sounds very good though, but I can't quite fully relax when listening, whilst there's the expectation of a tiny blip or major pause occurring.
So it got me thinking, how about changing something? I read streamers and DACs don't need to be expensive even though there are dozens of choices, mostly expensive. Would a more powerful amp improve the listening experience? Pre amps and power amps ?- to be honest it's getting like the Gramophone sketch in Not the 9 o'clock news! Separate DAC with Wiim streaming? Does that work? Why is the Arcam a better sound as I guess the streaming part of this CD player wouldn't be much different to the Wiim? Should I go for an Eversolo?
So, any help would be appreciated. Thanks.

 

[JeremyFife]

Hi, and welcome
I guess the first quick point would be to stop looking at hifi reviews on YouTube!! Fine for entertainment, but anything subjective is just going to be confusing (and probably plain wrong).

You have a very nice system.
Changing your electronics - DAC or Amp - will not improve your sound. The WiiM is as good a streamer as you can buy.

Any significant improvements will come from changing your speakers (later on, if you want to) and from adjusting the interaction of your speakers and your room.
The good news is that your WiiM Pro Plus has some very handy tools for that - Room Correction, and PEQ.

How are you connecting everything up?
My preference would be to run the Arcam CD digital output into the WiiM and then into your Amp. That lets you apply Room Correction to all your sources - and the DAC in the WiiM is very good.
Personal preference but I like the WiiM app so I'd use the WiiM as the streamer too. You might prefer the Arcam and that's fine.

You really shouldn't have pauses or jumps though.
Is that only when playing CDs - and might be mechanical.
If it is streaming too then do you get the same issue streaming from the WiiM or just from the Arcam? If it affects both then that indicates your WiFi.

A bit more detail on your 'jump' issue would be helpful. And, don't rush in to change electronics expecting any improvement

 

[AnalogSteph]

The issue I have is now I have been amazed at the sound from my modest setup I just wonder if it could get even better?

1. Elac Unifi Reference is a whole series. Which ones do you have, UBR62, UBR52, UFR52, ...?
2. Measurements. Room correction. (WiiM has PEQ.) We haven't seen your room or speaker placement and certainly can't tell whether some room treatment may be beneficial (which it often is).

I would be content with the Wiim but I believe the sound from the Arcam is a bit more attractive to me

You sure it's not just a level difference? Doesn't even have to be big. Output on the CDS50 seems to be a bit above average at 4.45 V via XLR so probably half that on RCA. I can't find whether the player supports ReplayGain; some support seems to have been added to the WiiM ecosystem lately (which I'd say is about bloody time given that it's a feature I've been using in PC players and DAPs for well over a decade).

, however there are some issues. I occasionally notice small jumps and sometimes pausing. I have been in contact with Arcam although the help given wasn't all that useful. I am trying Tidal along with Qobuz I have used for many months.

Sounds like a network buffering issue. If you are using its built-in WiFi, try using the wired networking.

Would a more powerful amp improve the listening experience?

Depends on how loud you're listening, at what kind of distance, and how lively your room is, not to mention the crest factor of your music material. Your current Rotel seems to be a 50 wpc job, which should generally get the job done but is not excessively powerful either. For a noteworthy upgrade you would be looking at something 200-250 wpc.

Separate DAC with Wiim streaming?

Maybe, although the WiiM Pro Plus is hardly a slouch either... roughly Topping E30 II Lite level. Definitely preamp-grade already, nothing that screams "upgrade me!" right away.

 

[terryforsythe]

I occasionally notice small jumps and sometimes pausing.

If it is happening when playing CDs, I suspect that is the CD player. I would test it with another CD player - maybe borrow one from a friend just to test. If the problem goes away, just get yourself an inexpensive CD player with a TosLink output, and connect it to your WiiM.

If it is happening when streaming, try streaming via your WiiM to see if the problem goes away. If so, just use the WiiM. If not, check for issues with your network.

Would a more powerful amp improve the listening experience?

It depends on how loud you usually listen and how far you sit from the speakers. The Elac UniFi Reference speakers are fairly inefficient (85 dB @ 2.83V for the bookshelves and 86 dB for the floorstanders). But, they should reach peaks of 103 dB @ 2m with your amplifier. That would be good for average volume around 83 dB, maybe slightly higher.

Here is a link to a spreadsheet you can use to investigate how much power you need for a given SPL at a given distance. For "Desired Maximum SPL" add 15-20 dB to your normal listening volume to provide headroom for dynamic peaks:

Amplifier Power Requirement

docs.google.com

I read streamers and DACs don't need to be expensive

That is correct.

Separate DAC with Wiim streaming? Does that work?

Yes, but unnecessary. I highly doubt you would hear a difference in a blind comparison. (If you know what unit is playing, the placebo effect probably will tell your brain that the one to which you have a pre-concieved bias sounds better.)

So it got me thinking, how about changing something?

Use your WiiM to implement room correction. If you do not have a subwoofer, that is something else you can add to improve your low bass.

 

[Needorwant]

Hi, and welcome
I guess the first quick point would be to stop looking at hifi reviews on YouTube!! Fine for entertainment, but anything subjective is just going to be confusing (and probably plain wrong).

You have a very nice system.
Changing your electronics - DAC or Amp - will not improve your sound. The WiiM is as good a streamer as you can buy.

Any significant improvements will come from changing your speakers (later on, if you want to) and from adjusting the interaction of your speakers and your room.
The good news is that your WiiM Pro Plus has some very handy tools for that - Room Correction, and PEQ.

How are you connecting everything up?
My preference would be to run the Arcam CD digital output into the WiiM and then into your Amp. That lets you apply Room Correction to all your sources - and the DAC in the WiiM is very good.
Personal preference but I like the WiiM app so I'd use the WiiM as the streamer too. You might prefer the Arcam and that's fine.

You really shouldn't have pauses or jumps though.
Is that only when playing CDs - and might be mechanical.
If it is streaming too then do you get the same issue streaming from the WiiM or just from the Arcam? If it affects both then that indicates your WiFi.

A bit more detail on your 'jump' issue would be helpful. And, don't rush in to change electronics expecting any improvement

Thank you for your help.

I am pretty sure the CD plays fine. I use wired connection to Virgin router 1gb download allegedly. I asked Arcam if wasn't just a Musiclife app issue but the player not able to cope with the higher quality streams. Eventually they said it was primarily a CD player! Not reassuring. It plays better than it did, now I am using Tidal and using a tablet placed near to the player.

The Wiim has been very reliable. The Arcam when streaming does sound clearer and more detailed, I believe. I am using it now but the display reads "DLNA search" when I think it should be displaying the type of download and quality (is it bitrate in kilobits per second?)

Manual states the Digital Audio outputs provide PCM stereo output only, if that is important?

 

[Marin]

Maybe Arcam has just a little "warmer" (more bass, roll of treble...)sound.

 

[Marin]

For me the worst part of your sistem is speakers.
The hype is so strong with these when it comes to marketing.
Yes the disagn is from famous Andrew Jones and he is a special when it comes to coaxial speakers, but you must have quite expensive quality parts.
I heard them in my friends house and it's sound good low volume, but as soon as you turn the volume up they start to yell at you.
Hope that helps.

 

[DVDdoug]

Most of the "sound quality" comes from the speakers (or headphones). Different speakers/headphones always sound different (better or worse). And yes, a subwoofer is worth considering.

With "higher quality" streams (higher bitrate) there is more data and you are more likely to get glitches in the audio. The internet doesn't send data "smoothly" and the intermittent bottlenecks could be almost anywhere between the server and your streamer. (More-likely somewhere on your end.) And because the transmission isn't "smooth" and there are gaps, there is a buffer (like a storage tank or a long pipe) in the streamer. That (hopefully) keeps the data flowing smoothly into the DAC. A bigger buffer is usually better but we don't know what's in the steamer (at-least I don't know).

Lossy compression (MP3 and whatever most of the streaming services use) can very good and it's usually very difficult to hear a difference between a lossy copy and the lossless original (in a proper blind listening test) if you can hear a difference at all. If you don't have a reason to use lossy compression then it's probably better to avoid it. But if you are getting glitches with lossless (or "high resolution"), the compressed stream will sound better! (Low-bitrate MP3s or other highly-compressed formats can sound pretty bad.)

You don't need more amplifier power unless you're hearing distortion when you turn it up, and you want to go louder.

Maybe Arcam has just a little "warmer" (more bass, roll of treble...)sound.

I don't know anything about it, but that's unlikely. Most electronics has flat frequency response... It's just not that hard these days...

 

[Marin]

Most of the "sound quality" comes from the speakers (or headphones). Different speakers/headphones always sound different (better or worse). And yes, a subwoofer is worth considering.

With "higher quality" streams (higher bitrate) there is more data and you are more likely to get glitches in the audio. The internet doesn't send data "smoothly" and the intermittent bottlenecks could be almost anywhere between the server and your streamer. (More-likely somewhere on your end.) And because the transmission isn't "smooth" and there are gaps, there is a buffer (like a storage tank or a long pipe) in the streamer. That (hopefully) keeps the data flowing smoothly into the DAC. A bigger buffer is usually better but we don't know what's in the steamer (at-least I don't know).

Lossy compression (MP3 and whatever most of the streaming services use) can very good and it's usually very difficult to hear a difference between a lossy copy and the lossless original (in a proper blind listening test) if you can hear a difference at all. If you don't have a reason to use lossy compression then it's probably better to avoid it. But if you are getting glitches with lossless (or "high resolution"), the compressed stream will sound better! (Low-bitrate MP3s or other highly-compressed formats can sound pretty bad.)

You don't need more amplifier power unless you're hearing distortion when you turn it up, and you want to go louder.


I don't know anything about it, but that's unlikely. Most electronics has flat frequency response... It's just not that hard these days...

I can completely agree with that.
But I wrote that because a salesperson at the only reputable brand store in my city specializing in audio equipment sad so.
So we listened to some British speakers and the Arcam A15 100W.
I complained that the speakers don't have good bass extension, but they still sound warm, which suits me, because I plan to use a woofer with them.
And I like that warm sound compared to "analitic" witch is bright speakers with metal twitter.
I was surprised when he told me that he wanted to show me the warmth of the Arcam and that those speakers probably wouldn't sound that warm?

But I wrote that because a salesperson at the only reputable brand store in my city specializing in audio equipment sad so.

So we listened to some British speakers and the Arcam A15 100W.

I complained that the speakers don't have good bass extension, but they still sound warm, which suits me, because I plan to use a woofer with them.

And I like that warm sound compared to "analitic" witch is bright speakers with metal twitter.

I was surprised when he told me that he wanted to show me the warmth of the Arcam and that those speakers probably wouldn't sound that warm?

I later read on some article that the A15 operates as Class A initially of the power?Truth or advertising?

I was really surprised because I was sure it was the other way around.

It is the speakers that give the sound its color, that is, its sound signature.

 

[terryforsythe]

I heard them in my friends house and it's sound good low volume, but as soon as you turn the volume up they start to yell at you.

The bookshelf UBR62 certainly benefits from a subwoofer and being crossed over up around 90-100 Hz. Then, they handle higher SPL. I haven't heard the floorstanders, but they should handle higher SPL than the bookshelf version.

 

[Needorwant]

The bookshelf UBR62 certainly benefits from a subwoofer and being crossed over up around 90-100 Hz. Then, they handle higher SPL. I haven't heard the floorstanders, but they should handle higher SPL than the bookshelf version.

Sorry, what is crossing over?

I listened to a few speakers recently at £799-2000 then when I played the same music through the Elac speakers at home they seemed (at least) as good. Maybe they are better than I was starting to believe? I adjusted the EQ on Wiim and moved the positioning a little.

 

[terryforsythe]

Sorry, what is crossing over?

Crossing over in that context is using filters to send frequencies below the crossover frequency to the subwoofer and frequencies above the crossover frequency to the speakers.

I listened to a few speakers recently at £799-2000 then when I played the same music through the Elac speakers at home they seemed (at least) as good. Maybe they are better than I was starting to believe? I adjusted the EQ on Wiim and moved the positioning a little.

In my opinion, the Elac UniFi Reference speakers image and soundstage very well, and they are fairly neutral, which I prefer. But, they are not perfect.

The concentric driver has a bit of diffraction, more so than say a KEF. That probably it is due to the cover over the tweeter, and discontinuities around the midrange due to the surround and midrange frame. This can be mitigated a bit by NOT aiming them diractly at the listening position. When sitting down to just listen to music, I remove the grills and tow them out about 10-15 degrees from being aimed directly at me.

I also made modifications to improve the bass impact and reduce harmonic distortion, but that is going down the rabbit hole. https://audiosciencereview.com/foru...-fi-reference-ubr62-bookshelf-speakers.51780/

 

[Needorwant]

Considering Revel F206 floor standers but I will sit about 2m away which may be a concern (?if I knew what I was talking about)

 

[Needorwant]

Most of the "sound quality" comes from the speakers (or headphones). Different speakers/headphones always sound different (better or worse). And yes, a subwoofer is worth considering.

With "higher quality" streams (higher bitrate) there is more data and you are more likely to get glitches in the audio. The internet doesn't send data "smoothly" and the intermittent bottlenecks could be almost anywhere between the server and your streamer. (More-likely somewhere on your end.) And because the transmission isn't "smooth" and there are gaps, there is a buffer (like a storage tank or a long pipe) in the streamer. That (hopefully) keeps the data flowing smoothly into the DAC. A bigger buffer is usually better but we don't know what's in the steamer (at-least I don't know).

Lossy compression (MP3 and whatever most of the streaming services use) can very good and it's usually very difficult to hear a difference between a lossy copy and the lossless original (in a proper blind listening test) if you can hear a difference at all. If you don't have a reason to use lossy compression then it's probably better to avoid it. But if you are getting glitches with lossless (or "high resolution"), the compressed stream will sound better! (Low-bitrate MP3s or other highly-compressed formats can sound pretty bad.)

You don't need more amplifier power unless you're hearing distortion when you turn it up, and you want to go louder.


I don't know anything about it, but that's unlikely. Most electronics has flat frequency response... It's just not that hard these days...

Revel F206 what do you think? On offer

 

[terryforsythe]

Considering Revel F206 floor standers but I will sit about 2m away which may be a concern (?if I knew what I was talking about)

They are good and 2m should not be a problem. They don't have a lot of bass extension. A subwoofer would be helpful.

Revel F206 Tower Speaker Review

This is a review, listening tests, EQ, and detailed measurements of the Revel F206 Floor-standing speaker. It is on kind loan from a member (new) and costs US $1347.50 each. Please excuse the mobile phone picture quality and plastics that are still on the speaker. I try to keep products as...

www.audiosciencereview.com

 

[Theodore8]

Considering Revel F206 floor standers but I will sit about 2m away which may be a concern (?if I knew what I was talking about)

You cannot go wrong with Revel F206. Objectively top of class performance, at that price point. If you can get a special offer jump on the opportunity !

 

[Theodore8]

They are good and 2m should not be a problem. They don't have a lot of bass extension. A subwoofer would be helpful.

Revel F206 Tower Speaker Review

This is a review, listening tests, EQ, and detailed measurements of the Revel F206 Floor-standing speaker. It is on kind loan from a member (new) and costs US $1347.50 each. Please excuse the mobile phone picture quality and plastics that are still on the speaker. I try to keep products as...

www.audiosciencereview.com

Frequency response is -10dB@33Hz -6dB@40Hz -3dB@52Hz. Subjectively, at that price point and speaker size that’s as good as it gets, and, subjectively again, totally OK for listening to music. Besides, it can be easily EQ’d if amplification is powerful enough. Of course, for movies, you need a subwoofer to get the sound effects.

 

[terryforsythe]

Frequency response is -10dB@33Hz -6dB@40Hz -3dB@52Hz. Subjectively, at that price point and speaker size that’s as good as it gets, and, subjectively again, totally OK for listening to music. Besides, it can be easily EQ’d if amplification is powerful enough. Of course, for movies, you need a subwoofer to get the sound effects.

If that's enough to float your boat, that's fine. Personally, I like the bass to be flat down at least to 30 Hz.

 

[terryforsythe]

Subjectively, at that price point and speaker size that’s as good as it gets

They are more money. But they include the amplifiers, streamer, etc.

 

[Needorwant]

I have spent too much time looking into this upgrade so I almost decided on PSB T65 speakers at ex-display offer of £899 but that was after an online chat with a sales guy putting me off Monitor Audio studio 89 at offer price 1299. Then I had an enjoyable listen to my rotel/elac/wiim but then Dark side Of the Moon spoilt it as it sounded poor but then maybe the recording was never very good. Hifi can be Hi stress. Confused.
Are the Kef Ls60's really good?