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Advice on room correction vs new equipment

willbeeching

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Hey guys, was advised by a friend to post on here.

My setup comprises of:
2x KEF R900
1x KEF R600c
2x KEF CI160QR
2x KEF CI4100QL
1x Denon AVR-X6300H

A year ago I moved into a new house and I just can't get the system to sound as good as it used to, particularly when listening to music. Due to the layout of the living room, there is just no other way to lay the room out, so I have limited space where I can even adjust the speaker angle/depth from wall.

I'm struggling with severe lack of bass when sitting on my sofa pictured below. However when moving a few feet forward, it sounds fine. I think I'm getting reflection cancelling the bass out as it hits the back wall.

I was considering upgrading from the Denon by adding an amp into the mix, and currently have a Hegel H95 on demo from a store, however I can't say I've noticed a huge amount of difference.

I guess my main questions are, what is the best way to try and adjust the room, and what is the best amp to add into my setup, or should I upgrade to the newer Denon 6700 or 8500, as they seem to get glowing reviews on here.

I've attached room layout and also results from the Audyssey setup on my Denon.

TIA!
 

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alex-z

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You are suffering from room modes aka standing waves, which are treated with absorption panels and subwoofers, both of which you lack currently.

No amount of room correction fixes them, because "room correction" is a misnomer, it is simply a form of EQ. In other words, it can fix speaker issues but not break the laws of physics. The X6300H actually has decent "room correction", upgrading won't improve your sound.

Audyssey "after" graphs are a pipe dream, never accurate. Use a real measurement mic like an $80 miniDSP UMIK-1.

Rather than wasting $2300 on a Hegel amp, spend $1500 on a pair of SVS SB-2000 Pro and the remaining $800 on absorption panels.

https://www.svsound.com/products/sb-2000-pro

https://www.gikacoustics.com/product/gik-acoustics-242-acoustic-panel/
 

Chrispy

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That's what subs are for. Like Alex says.
 

digitalfrost

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If you can, I would move the couch forward. What you're experiencing with the bass is pretty common if both you and the speakers are close to the wall. Both you and the speakers are in a pressure maximum.
 
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willbeeching

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You are suffering from room modes aka standing waves, which are treated with absorption panels and subwoofers, both of which you lack currently.

No amount of room correction fixes them, because "room correction" is a misnomer, it is simply a form of EQ. In other words, it can fix speaker issues but not break the laws of physics. The X6300H actually has decent "room correction", upgrading won't improve your sound.

Audyssey "after" graphs are a pipe dream, never accurate. Use a real measurement mic like an $80 miniDSP UMIK-1.

Rather than wasting $2300 on a Hegel amp, spend $1500 on a pair of SVS SB-2000 Pro and the remaining $800 on absorption panels.

https://www.svsound.com/products/sb-2000-pro

https://www.gikacoustics.com/product/gik-acoustics-242-acoustic-panel/

Thanks for replying!

I'll order the measurement mic and see what it comes back with.

Do I need a pair of subs, or do you think one would do? Also how do the SVS's compare to KEF or REL?

Last question would be are there any absorption or treatment options that are more girlfriend friendly? :D
 

leonroy

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A subwoofer will undoubtedly generate more bass than the R900. I noticed though that KEF recommend an amplifier up to 250W in power for the R900.

The speaker specs are below - it has a max SPL of 115 dB and 90 dB sensitivity (ref: 2.83V/1meter) - the OPs Denon AVR-X6300H has a specced power output of 140W into 8 ohm (0.05% 2ch drive).

Would the OP benefit from a more powerful power amplifier to take on amplification duties for the main stereo channels?

1623191669896.png
 

alex-z

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Thanks for replying!

I'll order the measurement mic and see what it comes back with.

Do I need a pair of subs, or do you think one would do? Also how do the SVS's compare to KEF or REL?

Last question would be are there any absorption or treatment options that are more girlfriend friendly? :D

A single subwoofer will still be a large improvement, but dual subs gives you a lot more flexibility in placement.

https://www.harman.com/documents/multsubs_0.pdf

KEF and REL subs are hilariously overpriced, for people who believe in the myth of "musical" subs.

Not really any way to avoid absorption panels. All you can really do is select nice looking fabric.
 

alex-z

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Would the OP benefit from a more powerful power amplifier to take on amplification duties for the main stereo channels?

250 watts into the R900 achieves 114dB at 1 metre, 140 watts from the X6300H achieves 111.5dB. Given the size of OP's room I doubt they are pushing anywhere near that level of output.
 

bo_knows

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Hey guys, was advised by a friend to post on here.

My setup comprises of:
2x KEF R900
1x KEF R600c
2x KEF CI160QR
2x KEF CI4100QL
1x Denon AVR-X6300H

A year ago I moved into a new house and I just can't get the system to sound as good as it used to, particularly when listening to music. Due to the layout of the living room, there is just no other way to lay the room out, so I have limited space where I can even adjust the speaker angle/depth from wall.

I'm struggling with severe lack of bass when sitting on my sofa pictured below. However when moving a few feet forward, it sounds fine. I think I'm getting reflection cancelling the bass out as it hits the back wall.

I was considering upgrading from the Denon by adding an amp into the mix, and currently have a Hegel H95 on demo from a store, however I can't say I've noticed a huge amount of difference.

I guess my main questions are, what is the best way to try and adjust the room, and what is the best amp to add into my setup, or should I upgrade to the newer Denon 6700 or 8500, as they seem to get glowing reviews on here.

I've attached room layout and also results from the Audyssey setup on my Denon.

TIA!
Your Audyssey graph actually looks really good (FR is within +10 -10dB). Looking at it I don't see how you would notice a severe lack of bass. Are you using the Audyssey phone/tablet app?
 
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Hotwetrat

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Thanks for replying!

I'll order the measurement mic and see what it comes back with.

Do I need a pair of subs, or do you think one would do? Also how do the SVS's compare to KEF or REL?

Last question would be are there any absorption or treatment options that are more girlfriend friendly? :D

TBH I'd try 2x SB 1000 Pro - unless you wanna break your walls volume wise, and, as you're used to NO sub anyway, I really feel 2x 2000 is a bit over kill for the sake of it.

Crossover at 80hz and take strain off your amp AND speakers and really I feel you're gonna notice a monstrous improvement.

I'm NO expert but if you were getting one sub, or even 'upgrading' a sub I'd agree with the SB2000 Pro, but as it is....

Transform your experience with 2 SB 1000 Pro subs on home trial.
 
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willbeeching

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Your Audyssey graph actually looks really good (FR is within +10 -10dB). Looking at it I don't see how you would notice a severe lack of bass. Are you using the Audyssey phone/tablet app?

It's incredible noticeable when sitting on the sofa, but moving closer it sounds right. It's literally night and day difference :(
 
OP
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willbeeching

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A single subwoofer will still be a large improvement, but dual subs gives you a lot more flexibility in placement.

https://www.harman.com/documents/multsubs_0.pdf

KEF and REL subs are hilariously overpriced, for people who believe in the myth of "musical" subs.

Not really any way to avoid absorption panels. All you can really do is select nice looking fabric.

I was thinking of getting 2 subs and placing them either end of the sofa. I was looking at the KEF Kube 12b just so all the speaker equipment is the same brand. Or would you say the SVS is vastly better?
 

abdo123

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I was thinking of getting 2 subs and placing them either end of the sofa. I was looking at the KEF Kube 12b just so all the speaker equipment is the same brand. Or would you say the SVS is vastly better?

it's usually common knowledge to buy subwoofers from subwoofer brands and speakers from speakers brands.

lower price markup, more performance .etc As the majority of passive speaker brands are boutique brands.
 

bo_knows

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It's incredible noticeable when sitting on the sofa, but moving closer it sounds right. It's literally night and day difference :(
I forgot to ask you, is this with music or moves? Due to your open floor plan is hard to predict what is going on with the bass.
If this was a normal rectangular room, it would be quite opposite of what you are describing. The middle of the room will NOT have low bass and bass would be strong at the boundaries of the room. Your main speakers go low enough for music but need to be positioned "right". Above 80Hz you can use broadband absorbers (min. 4-6 inches thick) that are spaced from the wall a few inches. Everything below that is EQ, sub(s), or specially designed diaphragmatic bass trap. Btw, I use the KEF KC92 sub and it's amazing but costly. Good luck.
 

abdo123

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Looking at the OP's post correction FR indicates no problem just above 100 Hz, so fancy panels are not needed.

or perhaps the fancy panels remedied the situation and that's why it's not as bad?

we're not re-inventing the wheel here you use acoustic panels to control the response above 100Hz.
 

Ron Texas

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it's usually common knowledge to buy subwoofers from subwoofer brands and speakers from speakers brands.

lower price markup, more performance .etc As the majority of passive speaker brands are boutique brands.

There are so many exceptions to the claims you are making and so much inherent vagueness, that they are misleading.
 
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