Advice on new preamp and power amp for 2.1 streaming-only system

[Blurmwood]

In my living room I have a pair of Polk LSiM 703 speakers and an SVS SB-1000 Pro subwoofer connected to an Outlaw RR2150 receiver that I bought new in 2007. The Outlaw has a phono stage, a tape loop, and other analog inputs, but at this point the only music source I use is Apple Music from an Apple TV 4K, via an HDMI audio extractor to an SMSL SU-1 DAC over Toslink. I also have a 13" display showing the Apple TV interface via HDMI from the audio extractor.

I have no complaints about the sound from the Outlaw, but lately I've been thinking about replacing it with some new components, both to downsize and also simply to try some more modern tech that I've been reading about here. Generally I think I want a DAC with volume control acting as a preamp feeding into a Buckeye amp, and I would like the DAC/preamp to have a sub out with crossover, something that the Outlaw also provides.

My initial plan is to use a MiniDSP Flex (for DAC, volume control, sub out, EQ) and either a Buckeye NC252MP or NC502MP amp to replace the RR2150 and the SU-1. Am I right that this would perform at least as well as my current setup?

Apple TV 4K -(HDMI)-> OREI HDA-912 audio extractor -(optical)-> MiniDSP Flex -(balanced output)-> Buckeye amp

I have two main points of doubt:

1. Digital vs. analog volume control: I came across some articles on the web making me think I might regret switching to digital volume control, but after reading some posts here it sounds like this is no problem.

2. How much amp power? The Outlaw is rated at 100 watts per channel at 8 ohms, and I don't think I've ever turned the volume even halfway. The NC252MP is 150 watts per channel at 8 ohms, and the NC502MP is 350 watts per channel. So probably the NC252MP would be fine, but I frequently read about how having more power is good for handling dynamic peaks, etc. This article recommends "a few hundred watts per channel" for the tower version of my speakers: https://hometheaterhifi.com/editorial/oped/how-much-amplifier-power-does-your-home-theater-need/ If the price difference is not a consideration, would it be smart to go with the 350 watts amp? Is there an issue with having too much power (using the amp only at the bottom of its range)? How does damping factor and current compare between the Outlaw and the Buckeye amps, and does this matter?

 

[staticV3]

Hi @Blurmwood! Welcome to ASR.

Do consider the WiiM Ultra, or even the WiiM Amp/Amp Pro/Amp Ultra.

These can be connected to your TV straight via HDMI ARC, and you can simply use the TV's own remote control for controlling volume, something that isn't possible with the miniDSP Flex.

EQ and subwoofer integration can be controlled wirelessly from the comfort of your MLP, using the WiiM Home App running on your phone/tablet.

And there's an App for Apple TV as well: https://forum.wiimhome.com/threads/wiim-home-app-lands-on-apple-tv.7147/

No, digital volume control is not an issue.

If you're not maxing out your current Amp, then buying one with more power won't be beneficial in any way.

Your Amp is already handling dynamic peaks just fine.

A 350W Amp will sound exactly the same.

Do not pay much attention to power recommendations for speakers.

How much power people actually need for a given speaker can vary wildly with listening distance, loudspeaker placement, room acoustics, listening habits etc.

If your circumstances are such that you're only using e.g. 30W even though the manufacturer recommends 50W minimum, then that in no way means you're missing out or anything.

Sound quality won't change at all just because you buy a more powerful Amp that meets the recommendation.

You'll still play at 30W, only that you now have a bunch of unused power reserves dong nothing, and a lighter wallet.

 

[JeremyFife]

Hi, and welcome

miniDSP Flex + Buckeye sounds fantastic. I doubt that anything will perform better (unless you want to fill a concert hall)

As you have found out: digital volume control is just fine - no issues at all.

Unused power is just that - unused. The Watts you actually use are the same, regardless of how much more is on tap.

Some thoughts ...

Stereophile measured your receiver, it's not at all bad:

Outlaw Audio RR2150 stereo receiver Measurements | Stereophile.com

Sidebar 3: Measurements I preconditioned the RR2150 by running it at 41Wpc into 8 ohms (approximately one third the measured clipping power) for one hour. The chassis was very warm at the end of that period, with the area above the internal heatsinks too hot to touch. However, the receiver...

www.stereophile.com

The gain is high ... combined high pre-amp gain of 15dB plus a high-ish 28dB Amp gain.
That means you will have to turn your new system up a LOT to get to the same perceived volume - it's like a gearing ratio. It doesn't change the total power output, just the profile of how you get to it. Do not be surprised if any new system sounds quieter than your Outlaw, that's going to be misleading.

Damping factor is pretty irrelevant now. If you feel like a deep dive: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...-damping-factor-and-why-is-it-important.1257/

If your new amp has "too much" power, then just don't turn it up all the way (children, or alcohol, can be problems here )

Enjoy the music

 

[Blurmwood]

Do consider the WiiM Ultra, or even the WiiM Amp/Amp Pro/Amp Ultra.

I had looked at the Ultra, but felt like I wouldn't use much of what it had to offer:

• It doesn't stream Apple Music, and Apple TV 4K can stream Apple Music at lossless quality and independent of my phone
• I already have full remote control of Apple Music via the app on my phone
• I'm using a small 13" display rather than a TV, and it doesn't support ARC (I wrote a custom Apple TV app to show album art at maximum size). It would be nice to have ARC so that I could control volume using my phone Music app, but it's hard to find very small TVs.
• MiniDSP Flex has balanced outputs, not a big deal but aligns with Buckeye amp
• I like the look of the Flex a bit better

 

[Blurmwood]

If you're not maxing out your current Amp, then buying one with more power won't be beneficial in any way.

Your Amp is already handling dynamic peaks just fine.

Unused power is just that - unused. The Watts you actually use are the same, regardless of how much more is on tap.

Thank you both, it sounds like I would probably be absolutely fine with the NC252MP. But I am constantly reading about the benefits of "headroom" online... it's hard to judge what matters and what doesn't. But I think I am learning here!

miniDSP Flex + Buckeye sounds fantastic. I doubt that anything will perform better (unless you want to fill a concert hall)

This was the impression I got from the measurements on this site. Going by function only (a McIntosh amp might look cooler) is there really anything I could buy that would top it in an audible way? Leaving my speakers and room as the differentiating factors.

 

[staticV3]

But I am constantly reading about the benefits of "headroom" online

More power enables higher playback volume.

More headroom enables nothing.

 

[kyuu]

You only need as much headroom as you need to hit dynamic peaks at whatever playback level you listen to. Anything more doesn't do anything for you (except peace of mind I guess). That said, if you're going with a Buckeye amp, get an NC502MP and don't worry about it. Unless you are listening really loud from really far away using exceptionally low sensitivity speakers, that will be way more power than you will ever need.

As for the Wiim Ultra, yeah it doesn't stream Apple Music but then neither does the miniDSP. But in any case the best argument for getting the miniDSP Flex would be if you're getting a Dirac license as well. Good room correction is easily the biggest actual upgrade you can make to your setup. Way more impactful than having some extra watts you'll never use or using XLR versus RCA. The Wiims have pretty capable room correction these days as well, but still not as sophisticated as Dirac.

 

[JeremyFife]

Thank you both, it sounds like I would probably be absolutely fine with the NC252MP. But I am constantly reading about the benefits of "headroom" online... it's hard to judge what matters and what doesn't. But I think I am learning here!


This was the impression I got from the measurements on this site. Going by function only (a McIntosh amp might look cooler) is there really anything I could buy that would top it in an audible way? Leaving my speakers and room as the differentiating factors.

Leaving your speakers and room out ... nope

Subwoofers perhaps - but that's also a room correction thing

 

[Blurmwood]

As for the Wiim Ultra, yeah it doesn't stream Apple Music but then neither does the miniDSP. But in any case the best argument for getting the miniDSP Flex would be if you're getting a Dirac license as well. Good room correction is easily the biggest actual upgrade you can make to your setup. Way more impactful than having some extra watts you'll never use or using XLR versus RCA. The Wiims have pretty capable room correction these days as well, but still not as sophisticated as Dirac.

These are good points, thanks.

 

[Blurmwood]

Do consider the WiiM Ultra, or even the WiiM Amp/Amp Pro/Amp Ultra.

As for the Wiim Ultra, yeah it doesn't stream Apple Music but then neither does the miniDSP. But in any case the best argument for getting the miniDSP Flex would be if you're getting a Dirac license as well. Good room correction is easily the biggest actual upgrade you can make to your setup.

I have to admit I've been continuing to think about the Wiim Ultra. I'm basically looking for a DAC with volume control, sub out, parametric EQ, and remote control. For whatever reason I am drawn to the miniDSP, but the Ultra is $329 vs. $620 for the Flex balanced (currently at PartsExpress). And the Ultra comes with room correction, while Dirac is an additional $200 on the Flex. An extra $500 is hard to justify—that would cover a lot of the price of the amp.

 

[Power Pop 23]

I'm basically looking for a DAC with volume control, sub out, parametric EQ, and remote control.

Welcome to ASR !

A WiiM Amp has that and will stream Apple Music. Consider trying a WiiM Amp in conjunction your SVS subwoofer to hear if it will drive your Polk LSiM 703 speakers as loud as you desire.