Advice on integrated amp for Wharfedale Diamonds 230

[brotakul]

OK, understood. Thanks for advices, guys!

 

[Willem]

Congratulations on a good system!

 

[brotakul]

Thanks, I appreciate

 

[witwald]

I'm talking about sound quality, power difference is under 3dB

The sound quality difference is essentially related to the difference in power output of these two amplifiers. They are both designed and constructed to a good standard. With the benefit of an extra 3 dB, the more powerful amplifier will be a better choice.

Many reviewers may like you to think that they are routinely able to hear things such as: it produces a faster and more natural sound; it produces gut-shaking and pitch-perfect bass; the bite on brass was thoroughly convincing; the connected loudspeakers could now unrestrictedly communicate the infinite importance of slight gestures, with an unprecedented warmth and fullness; the amp reproduced the unique and wonderful colors and textures of the music; it had natural air and spaciousness allowing for a realistic and detailed presentation that other amps miss; it was such a gloriously magical experience to hear such excellence proclaimed with every note; this amp knew what it wanted to say and it did not equivocate.

In the end, 100 W of power is a better choice than 50 W of power, as it leaves plenty of headroom for reproducing music peaks without the deleterious effects of clipping. Of course, the amp should have a feature set that meets your needs, with adequately low distortion and high signal-to-noise ratio. Play a well designed 50 W solid state amp within its linear operating range, then it will sound the same as the 100 W amp played at the same volume level. Of course, that assumes that the amplifiers possess similar damping factors.

 

[ceausuc]

are you sure (some of) the lifeless sound doesn't come from your source?

have you considered a dual Merus :: like smsl ao200?
pros:
- good sound
- good price (in line with speakers)
- tone controls
- small and efficient

if you want power.. (and have the money) why not pre+ncore-power?

 

[Willem]

The only potential sound improvement would come from a high quality DAC/preamp like the RME ADI-2 with its multiple controls (and because of those) or a MiniDSP SHD (but no vinyl inputs on these, if that matters) combined with a beefy Hypex NCore power amp. However that would cost a lot more for only marginal improvement and would be out of place with these speakers.

 

[Raindog123]

The C370 seems to have refined everything a little bit

What do you think about C372 compared to C370?

You can find them on eBay for ~$300 (or for $100 with failed capacitors, and get a set of new ones from Digi-Key for $100 and an evening of soldering…)

 

[gasolin75]

The sound quality difference is essentially related to the difference in power output of these two amplifiers. They are both designed and constructed to a good standard. With the benefit of an extra 3 dB, the more powerful amplifier will be a better choice.

NO you can'r base which onme is best buy the power, like with cars

 

[JSmith]

No love here for a Denon integrated?

https://www.denon.com/en-us/category/amplifiers



JSmith

 

[Willem]

The sound quality difference is essentially related to the difference in power output of these two amplifiers. They are both designed and constructed to a good standard. With the benefit of an extra 3 dB, the more powerful amplifier will be a better choice.

NO you can'r base which onme is best buy the power, like with cars

Amplifiers are not cars. They have a very simple job: amplify an electrical signal without changing it. The technology has matured and sonically perfect amplifiers have existed for decades. The only relevant advances have been in manufacturing technology and price. More recently they have also become more frugal with electricity.

 

[gasolin75]

No love here for a Denon integrated?

https://www.denon.com/en-us/category/amplifiers



JSmith

WHY isn't there a 2500NE

 

[JSmith]

WHY isn't there a 2500NE

Good pickup, I did notice that too but decided to post the US page... the local one here has it;

https://www.denon.com/en-au/category/hifi/amplifier



JSmith

 

[Colonel7]

The reason I listed the NAD here: recently had the opportunity to test a friend’s NAD 319 in my setup, with the Wharfedales, and the impression was quite strong. To my ears, the NAD was fuller and more clear in the mids (vocals, guitar, which I love as I listen to blues a lot), the bass seemed to be tighter (less boomy) and cleaner (more articulate maybe?) and the presentation was more forward, as in, while with the R-N301 the sound is more or less in line with the baffle, with the NAD was projected more in front of the speakers and closer to me. That’s the “feeling” I had, the best I can describe it in this “audiophile” jargon.

Compared to the NAD, the 301 sounds still clean, but very flat, uninvolving, like is lacking in the dynamics department.

Now, I don’t know whether this was because of the difference in power between the amps (and maybe not the nominal wpc but having more to do with power supply max output, more capacitance in the power level, etc - not an electro guy here..), but the NAD just felt it had a lot more grunt.

Or maybe it just has to do with the “voicing” of the amp, I don’t know. It’s the only “other” amp i tested on my speakers, so I don’t have a good reference to compare. Hence me posting here about the subject

Did you A/B the amplifiers blind and have them switch inputs randomly? This should be relatively easy to do bc the Wharfedales have the double binding posts for biwiring. Just don't feed high volume signal from both amps at the same time! Or you can buy a 20 euro switchboard for peace of mind. @Doodski is this a sound approach?

It would be worth it to try since the differences you perceived could just as well be sighted expectation bias. It could save you an unneeded purchase or you can confirm that you prefer a higher powered amp.

 

[UniPolar]

The NAD 370 has a +/- 64VDC main power supply powering those transistors that drive the speakers.
The NAD C319 has a +/- 60VDC main power supply powering those transistors that drive the speakers.

Doodski, exactly what are you saying here ?? More refined because of the fewer output transistors or the biasing is better ?

Does more 'capacitance' always produce a more powerful transient ? Have an engineering background maybe ?

Pulling the data sheets really doesn't prove much unless you have measured and analyzed the circuit topology.

 

[brotakul]

At some point, I was also looking at the DRA-800H stereo receiver. It's in the same category of receivers as the Yamaha R-N series.

BTW: I was "left" with the impression that these "network/stereo receivers" are somehow inferior (by design) to the more classic/pure integrated amplifiers, in the sense that that would be surround AVRs underneath, but with only 2 channels left and an electrical design that's less focused on sound quality (shortest signal path, better components, etc).
I have no electrical knowledge to check the schematics and challenge that, but I assume since these receivers offer more advanced digital features such as room correction, streaming and so on, would already do lots of signal processing, regardless of whether the unit was initially intended as a surround receiver or a stereo integrated amp. Is this correct? I don't know if I misjudge them here...

Obviously a pure analog amp (as in no digital inputs, even if it has integrated circuitry inside like most amps have since the late 90s) would have less electrical circuits and a more direct signal path, but are there stereo receivers outthere that were specifically meant to be just that and the best they can be, along with other units that were just "downgraded" from multi-channel and stripped by the video processing and sold as stereo receivers? Or, electrically, there is no difference between the two?
I reaaaally hope this make sense, but I won't hold my breath..

 

[brotakul]

Did you A/B the amplifiers blind and have them switch inputs randomly? This should be relatively easy to do bc the Wharfedales have the double binding posts for biwiring. Just don't feed high volume signal from both amps at the same time! Or you can buy a 20 euro switchboard for peace of mind. @Doodski is this a sound approach?

It would be worth it to try since the differences you perceived could just as well be sighted expectation bias. It could save you an unneeded purchase or you can confirm that you prefer a higher powered amp.

Yes I actually did. I had both the Yamaha R-N301 and the NAD 319 wired to my speakers at the same time (4 cables, binding posts bridged) for a month or so, switching from one to another. The difference seemed to me very obvious, easy to catch.

 

[Colonel7]

Yes I actually did. I had both the Yamaha R-N301 and the NAD 319 wired to my speakers at the same time (4 cables, binding posts bridged) for a month or so, switching from one to another. The difference seemed to me very obvious, easy to catch.

Good job. You should also do it blind though. "Obvious" can become "very hard" or indistinguishable. It'd be only an hour tops of your time if your friend is still willing to have you borrow it

 

[brotakul]

Good job. You should also do it blind though. "Obvious" can become "very hard" or indistinguishable. It'd be only an hour tops of your time if your friend is still willing to have you borrow it

I sure can do that
But right now, the 319 is in the re-capping phase, so I'll need to wait a bit.

 

[Willem]

AV receivers have two problems. The first is that there is a lot of processing going on, and this may impact measured performance. However, if the processing is for digital inputs this is useful and should not create problems. If the processing is for dsp room eq it is harder to avoid interference, but the benefits of dsp room eq usually outweigh the degradation. Do not forget that the only criterion is ultimately if the degradation is audible - it often is not. The other problem is that these are multi channel units so they have to house a lot more power hungry amplifier channels. Often the power supply cannot handle this. However, a unit like the Yamaha RN803 is neither based on an AV receiver (it is in essence the same traditional design as the AS 701/801), nor does it have the many power hungry channels (it has a traditional beefy power supply). So used without the extra digital processing it performs very well. If the digital processing is used measured performance is indeed degraded somewhat, but for a useful purpose.

 

[brotakul]

AV receivers have two problems. The first is that there is a lot of processing going on, and this may impact measured performance. However, if the processing is for digital inputs this is useful and should not create problems. If the processing is for dsp room eq it is harder to avoid interference, but the benefits of dsp room eq usually outweigh the degradation. Do not forget that the only criterion is ultimately if the degradation is audible - it often is not. The other problem is that these are multi channel units so they have to house a lot more power hungry amplifier channels. Often the power supply cannot handle this. However, a unit like the Yamaha RN803 is neither based on an AV receiver (it is in essence the same traditional design as the AS 701/801), nor does it have the many power hungry channels (it has a traditional beefy power supply). So used without the extra digital processing it performs very well. If the digital processing is used measured performance is indeed degraded somewhat, but for a useful purpose.

Thanks Willem for the explanation, it gave me some pace of mind about the 803d, which I strongly consider. And my hope is that YPAO would actually help with the room issues more that it would degrade the signal. I'm no audiophile and the speakers may not be that revealing anyway, so the 803d seems to be a great package (especially since I use Apple Music over Airplay a lot and also Spotify - still waiting for the HiFi subscription ).
And maybe, who knows, someday in the future I might also get my hands on a good piece of old amp and have them both ways and call it a day!