Advice on audio upgrade - room correction of better equipment first?

[marek]

Hi, I wanted to get peoples opinion and help on what would be the best trajectory for my audio upgrade.
After moving to my new apartment I took a set of Buchardt A500 + Platin Hub and placed them in my living room. As you can imagine it's not an audio treated room. The room is around 48sqm (~520 sqf) and 3 meters high. The couch is roughly 3 meters from the wall with TV and speakers. I use Roon and local FLAC or Tidal to stream my music. Eventually I want to add a turntable and be able to play some vinyls.

Literally everybody in any audio shop I went to would told me that these Buchardts were definitely too small for such a big room and so did ~half of the internet (with chatGPT taking the lead). Perhaps, but i don't see any obvious symptoms of them being too small. Or perhaps I got used to that and would only see a difference with floorstanding speakers and more powerful amp placed next to my current speakers. I also used Buchardt's Room correction.

Now, I plan to move A500s to my office (much smaller room there) and was thinking about upgrading my main audio set. What I am looking for is rather a real upgrade in sound quality, not a lateral move from two active speakers to a set of passive floorstanding speakers, amp and a bunch of cables, but all sounding the same as A500s. I mean, if they all sound the same then either my system is hi-fi enough or I am not sensitive enough and then simply should get another pair of A500s at best That could work too, but so far I wanted to see if I can experience the real hi-fi and its sound quality

There is a mixed set of opinions on how to start upgrading the audio system and here is my ask for advice here - I did see an opinion that since the room is untreated, the biggest improvement at this point would come from proper room correction. Obviously Dirac Live comes as an example. And only with Dirac implemented, upgrading amps and higher-end speakers will let them shine. When I asked customer support in a few audio shops, the answer was "new amp and speakers will be a much more visible upgrade" but it may also be that they just want to sell me something.

I wonder what's your take on this and if it makes sense to invest in a piece of equipment with Dirac Live built-in or getting higher-end audio will be better?

My research shows NAD M66 could be a good solution - has Dirac Live built-in, but also turntable inputs.

Now, assuming the Dirac Live would be of help here is my upgrade plan:

1. Get M66 (or similar) and connect with my A500s via XLR, getting rid of the Platin Hub for now
2. 1. Get proper amplifier + speakers (something like Focal Kanta) and connect to M66
   2. Move My A500 to another room and reconnect again with Platin Hub
3. Get the turntable and connect to the M66 and complete the setup.

thanks for all advices on where to start looking to upgrade my audio,
Marek

 

[sceptical1]

The a500 is a fine speaker. Buy 2 subs to eliminate the compression from the a500s and clean up the room modes. You do not need a different amp or different speakers, you need to stop asking for advice for a problem that doesn't exist from a bunch of reddiots.

 

[levimax]

The A500 + platin hub are well reviewed https://www.erinsaudiocorner.com/loudspeakers/buchardt_a500/ . Platin hub can do anything DIRAC can do and unless the speakers don't play loud enough for you they should be fine. Bigger and more powerful speakers can play louder but that is about it, they won't sound better at lower listening levels. I would make sure you carefully run the Patin Hub DSP in your new room and then enjoy what you have.

 

[DVDdoug]

Literally everybody in any audio shop I went to would told me that these Buchardts were definitely too small for such a big room.

That's for you to decide... Only if they don't go loud enough for you or if you want more bass. The built-in room correction is rare for a speaker and you might not want to give it up.

A subwoofer might be the way to go for more-deeper bass. Bass also adds to the "feel" of the loudness.

If you think you want acoustic treatment, get a calibrated measurement mic (about $100 USD) and REW (free) and measure the room (and speakers together) first. ("Diagnosis before treatment") And note that most "room problems", or the worst room problems, are in the bass range and that requires large bass traps.

all sounding the same as A500s

No two speakers sound the same and they will sound different in different rooms.

The electronics won't make a difference except for amplifier power (not an issue with active speakers) unless you consider tone controls, EQ, and room correction. Cables don't make any difference unless they are broken.

And since this is one of the few rational-scientific resources and you might be reading/hearing a lot of nonsense, check out Audiophoolery.

Eventually I want to add a turntable and be able to play some vinyls.

Do you know what you're getting into? It's a technically-inferior, outdated, expensive, format. Some people enjoy it, some people even prefer the technically-inferior sound and that's OK. But I grew-up vinyl. I was never completely satisfied, even though it was the best we had at home, and I'm NOT going back!

 

[Gitfiddle]

I would also warn you about vinyl.

I grew up listening to my parents vinyl. Some people like it, if you are one of them, then that's fantastic. If you have never tried it, you really should first. The loss of dynamic range and added noise, compared to CD, are not for everyone. Some vinyl is very well done and others... not so much. Some turntables can damage the discs very quickly. If you go down this route I wish you the best, CD's are so much easier to work with.

 

[sceptical1]

if you were thinking about vinyl anew don't do it. if you already have records a Project or used Technics DD with a Michael Fidler preamp and AT cartridge would be okay and all for less than $1K. it's all about being an audiophile, right?

 

[pablolie]

Vinyl is a ritual, and as such I don't judge it. But I gave my turntable (a legendary Technics 1200) away as a gift to a cousin's son with an internet radio ambition, it had been unused and grown dusty for over 20 years at that time. But if someone wants to indulge, good for them,

As to the original question, I think our regular listening rooms will never be perfect. First of all, it's not always practical, and second of all, the day my listening room looks like an anechoic chamber I'll stop listening to music... Many room correction crutches are snake oil, so beware. The most effective "room correction" are tools like Dirac (which is basically "automated room evaluation and EQ and placement correction"), and it's probably the biggest SQ break through in 30 years, but -personally- I have not always loved the out of the box results.

 

[boxerfan88]

Live with the current setup for 3-6 months.

If the urge to upgrade dissipates, then you’re done.

If it is still there, ask yourself why? Is it because insufficient SPL? Is it because of insufficient bass? Is it because it looks too small for the space? etc… That’ll give you the core needs to fulfill in your upgrade search.

 

[JeffS7444]

My gut impression is that you already own very good stuff, but of course the dealer really would like to convince you that you need to buy bigger-better-more $$!

If you simply must have a turntable, consider pairing it with a Parks Audio Waxwing phono preamp, which has a digital output. Waxwing has easily been my single biggest vinyl sonic upgrade.

 

[marek]

Thanks for all the replies.

The A500s are solid—I’ve used them in a bigger room. But as I mentioned, I’m thinking of moving them to my office, which means picking something new for the living room. And since I wanted to do upgrade in stages, wanted to get your opinions on what part to start optimizing first (if any). Thanks for all the responses!

More broadly (and hypothetically): are amps like Mark Levinson or McIntosh and speakers like the Focal Kanta just larger and pricier but not necessarily and objectively better? Is this closer to buying a Porsche—sometimes not objectively “better,” but appealing because it’s a Porsche?


Vinyl will be occasional—more for the atmosphere than critical listening.

 

[Willem]

First, unless you want to waste money, forget about vinyl.
Second, you already have an excellent system. Erin's review will document that, and also points out the limitations: it cannot overcome the physics of playing small speakers loudly in a largish room. As you can see from his graphs, the system has exemplary low frequency extension but smartly limits low frequency output the louder you play. If you were to keep this system in this largish room, the best option is to add one or two subwoofers and set a high pass filter. This will give you both extension and higher spl. The Buchardt sub is probably your best option because it will integrate with the electronics of your current set up, including the room eq.
Third, if you really want to get a new system for your main room, get something similar but larger like their A700 LE, or the larger Neumann or Genelec active speakers. These will deliver the same kind of flat response and technical excellence. Your current system will not need the sub if you move it to your office.

 

[Bland_username42069]

The man wants to set a turntable up. Why do people keep saying don’t do it when that’s what he wants to do.

 

[Willem]

The man wants to set a turntable up. Why do people keep saying don’t do it when that’s what he wants to do.

Of course he can do it, but it will be expensive and yet sonically inferior, and that is what ASR is about. There is so much audiophool nonensense being peddled, and vinyl is part of that. As you can see from the advice he is getting in shops, most shops will not help him either.

 

[Bland_username42069]

Of course he can do it, but it will be expensive and yet sonically inferior, and that is what ASR is about. There is so much audiophool nonensense being peddled, and vinyl is part of that. As you can see from the advice he is getting in shops, most shops will not help him either.

He might listen to things not available on streaming, might be a collector, might just want to support artists by buying physical copies or might just enjoy the experience.

All things being equal (mastering etc) I doubt anyone is saying vinyl is better but at the end of the day it’s about being able to hear music and if it’s not on streaming then it’s a turntable or nothing.

 

[Hear Here]

There is a mixed set of opinions on how to start upgrading the audio system and here is my ask for advice here - I did see an opinion that since the room is untreated, the biggest improvement at this point would come from proper room correction. Obviously Dirac Live comes as an example. And only with Dirac implemented, upgrading amps and higher-end speakers will let them shine. When I asked customer support in a few audio shops, the answer was "new amp and speakers will be a much more visible upgrade" but it may also be that they just want to sell me something.

Remember that no "room correction DSP" can ever correct a room.

All it can ever do is adjust the amp's output signal (from its initial nice flat response) in an attempt to compensate for the room's influence on the sound by the time it reaches your ears.

DSP should be the last, not the first, resort in getting the best sound in your new room.

I moved from London several years to a new build flat with a huge and difficult living room - 945 sq ft, semi-circular, low ceilings and floor-to-ceiling glass on the curved wall. As you can imaging the acoustics were dire, including lots of reverberation.

The first thing to do was to add furniture, carpets (40% of floor area) and curtains - never closed but still effective as room treatment. This made a huge improvement in basic acoustics.

Next is to decide what TYPE of speaker will best suit the room - conventional box, electrostatic, horn, omni, etc. The room features should lead you in the right direction, but getting the wring type may be a very costly mistake, as I found out along the way.

Once you have decided on speaker type, make a shortlist based on reviews, visits to shows and dealers, asking here or other more practical forums (sorry ASR) and arrange home demos if buying new. Don't part with your cash on anything that is raved about in reviews and sounds great at the dealer's showroom until you know how it will sound in your own listening room. That was my costly mistake!

Once you have your spanking new speakers (70+% of your budget) look for a suitable amp if your existing one falls short of expectations, or is unsuitable for the new speakers.

You mention the NAD M66. I have just bought one (after enjoying other Master Series for 10 yeares or so), but I'm not 100% over the moon about it. Consider the M33 instead, or better still wait for the new M33 V2 that should be available about now. This has a better DAC than the M66, includes a first-class power amp and (unless they have stripped out some of V1's features) offers more nice or useful features that the M66 sadly and annoyingly doesn't - and you won't need a separate amp or interconnects.

With the M33 V2 or M66 plus a suitable amp, you are ready to enjoy great music. If you bought the right type of speakers and have set them up optimally (position, toe-in, maybe tilt. etc) you really shouldn’t need to resort to Dirac Live. If you think it will improve the sound, it is there to be experimented with - and DLBC too. However, if your speakers are able to deliver music with sparkling top-end detail, you may well find that applying a filter will reduce this sparkle a bit. How can that be if the filter only adjusts the bass? The trouble is that the entire signal has to pass through this complex filter and it does the top end no favours by being subjected to it.

Before resorting to DSP (as I suggested, this should be your last resort), if the sound is still adversely affected by room features that haven't been resolved by carpets, furniture, etc, look towards geuine room treatment, A few panels or absorbers may do the trick.

If you have still failed somewhere along the line - kick yourself - and chuck DSP at the problem.
Good luck in your search.

 

[Willem]

I think this is a confusing response. Of course, it helps if you start with a good room. However, it really matters to distinguish between equalizing above and below the Schroeder frequency. Above the Schroeder frequency you are trying to address reflections. Unfortunately what you can do at higher frequencies is extremely listening position dependent, to the point that you only make matters worse. Above the Schroeder frequency all you can do in an existing room is physical treatment and damping. Soft furnishings, bookcases and carpets can go a long way. Below the Schroeder frequency we are dealing with room modes, and those can and have to be equalized, but hardly by bass traps as those would have to be very large. The combination of multiple subwoofers and dsp room equalization below, say, 100-250 Hz depending on room size is often your best bet. As for speakers and amplification, the Burchardts show the superiority of dsp controlled active speakers, just like those from Genelec, Neumann and now also Harbeth.

 

[boxerfan88]

Post #16 is very good advice!

 

[Sokel]

So you're at the 140-150 m³ room volume area (minus furniture, etc but that's irrelevant) and 3 meters listening distance.
Now, take that number and see what Genelec advises for such a room:

Correct Monitors - Genelec.com

A monitor, by definition, observes, checks, controls, warns or keeps a continuous record of something. An audio monitor, studio monitor or monitoring speaker is more than just a good-sounding loudspeaker. It is a device used in the process of recording, mixing or broadcasting audio in any...

www.genelec.com

As you see you're into the mains monitors territory, that means big-ish speakers than usual.
You could add some subs for lower but midbass will still suffer at elevated levels if that's your preference.

 

[LTig]

More broadly (and hypothetically): are amps like Mark Levinson or McIntosh and speakers like the Focal Kanta just larger and pricier but not necessarily and objectively better? Is this closer to buying a Porsche—sometimes not objectively “better,” but appealing because it’s a Porsche?

Yes, often they are inferior to what ASR has reviewed at much lower costs.

Vinyl will be occasional—more for the atmosphere than critical listening.

Then try to find something second hand, with budget left for a decent new pickup with a micro line needle.

 

[LTig]

So you're at the 140-150 m³ room volume area (minus furniture, etc but that's irrelevant) and 3 meters listening distance.
Now, take that number and see what Genelec advises for such a room: [..]

As you see you're into the mains monitors territory, that means big-ish speakers than usual.
You could add some subs for lower but midbass will still suffer at elevated levels if that's your preference.

Those recommendations are for studio use, which means ability to play very loud within a treated room.

Domestic playback typically means to play less loud in non treated rooms, often with the listening position in the reverberant field. In my case I listen to a pair of K&H O300D (similar to Neumann KH310) and a Gentle 7060b sub in a 50 SQ room at 3.8m distance. Room treatment exists just by furniture and lots of book shelves. I never reached the limit of the speakers even when playing louder than I Iike to handle. The system sounds very good.