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Advice on airist r2r dac and some other gear

PrismaticOrb

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I started off buying a lightly used pair of srh1840 which to my ears sound great. Ended up with a jds atom which drove them pleasantly from my samsung note 9 using tidal hifi service. I then bought a little bear b4-x which my phone has to he airplane mode to use but seemed lacking.

I was always interested in the hd650's because I originally bought the 1840's not only for my old job but as monitors in my studio which led me massdrop hd6xx which I do enjoy as budget headphones.

I guess my question is I if the airist r2r is the right dac. And considering my phone is my main supply of music until I pick up a macbook pro I'm reaching out to the brains in this forum for reassurance and maybe a little guidance on the dac end of things.

Any help would be appreciated.
 
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Crane

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Yea the airist still hasn't been measured but there are tons that have been here. Probably just look at the last review and see the master chart (https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...i-adc-dac-hp.8165/#lg=attachment29890&slide=0) and find something within your budget range.

If you plan on using just single ended "unbalanced headphones" then the JDS atom is better than the thx789 and cheaper. Currently the recommended budgets here are the:

- Dx3pro 200$ combo DAC/amp
- JDS atom amp + Khadas tone board DAC (the Khadas is barebone)
 

pwjazz

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I suspect the output on your Note 9 is plenty good, so just feed that to your Atom and you should be good.
 

garbulky

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The Airist has been measured on a different site
[URL]https://www.superbestaudiofriends.org/index.php?threads/airist-r2-r-dac-measurements.6418/ [/url]
Though the distortion is still low enough to likely not be audible in music listening this isn't really too great as far as DACs go. most regular dacs can manage performance well below this (see the distortion spikes).
index.php

Now how does it sound? I have no idea.
 
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PrismaticOrb

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The note 9 sounds pretty awful trying to push even the 1840s, volume has to be at near max on both atom and the phone. Once you go past 70% on the phone it starts distorting pretty bad.
 

Crane

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I'm not saying the note9 is good but most likely what you are talking about the voltage limitation of using a phone, if you notice reviews using unbalanced are tested to 2vrms (4vrms balanced) because that's typically sufficient power for equipment. Phones most likely cant even muster above 1.

I'm not entirely sure how phones perform in general but I would guess all but LG phones would likely lack in DAC capabilities .
 

pwjazz

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volume has to be at near max on both atom and the phone

That seems odd. The SRH1840 has an impedance of 65 ohm and an efficiency of 96dB/mW. That means you'd need 1.28 Vrms to hit 110dB peaks (quite loud and likely only needed if you're listening to highly dynamic classical music). Atom high gain is 4.5x, so that means you'd only need 0.28 Vrms from the Note 9. Most phones/tables can manage 1 Vrms.

Are you running the Atom on high gain? If you're running on low gain (unity gain), then I could see how you'd need to turn the volume up pretty high on both.
 

solderdude

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The airist most certainly can be discriminated from other DACs even in blind tests.
This means the Airist is not neutral (it has considerable roll-off in the treble)
I would buy a different DAC unless you are looking for NOS sound (it isn't really a NOS DAC anyway.. it just claims it is but secretly isn't.
 

gvl

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It doesn't claim NOS as far as I can tell, linear phase FIR is right there in the specs.
 

solderdude

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They claim(ed?) the R2R converter operates 'NOS' since they usample before the actual DAC.
Maybe they 'dropped' that statement over time but it sure was touted that way in the beginning.
I was offered to review it (before it came on the market) but as the one asking me claimed it sounded different from other DACs I kindly declined the offer.
I can't measure it as well as Amir or some others anyway so did not see the point.

When DACs sound objectively different from others in controlled blind tests they do something to the signal.
Usually not for the better objectively but can be perceived as 'better' by some... just not me.
 

Veri

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They claim(ed?) the R2R converter operates 'NOS' since they usample before the actual DAC.
Maybe they 'dropped' that statement over time but it sure was touted that way in the beginning.
They use FIR upsampling to 192Khz and it's NOS from there. You would expect almost zero roll-off after upsampling, but there is about -3dB at 20khz, which to me means they did this roll-off on purpose. Kinda strange but I suppose they want people to think R2R sounds "warm" compared to DS...

I was offered to review it (before it came on the market) but as the one asking me claimed it sounded different from other DACs I kindly declined the offer.
I can't measure it as well as Amir or some others anyway so did not see the point.

Good call :):D
 
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audimus

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When DACs sound objectively different from others in controlled blind tests they do something to the signal.
Usually not for the better objectively but can be perceived as 'better' by some... just not me.

Please don’t take this as a challenge or reopening the measure vs listen debate but I am curious about your last statement and want to understand it. I hope this is not a repeat of a discussion earlier. I am posing this in the context of scientific method of relating measurements to hearing not voodoo audio claims.

Here is a thought experiment to understand this better.

Let us say you are set up in a well designed blind tests where you are not aware of which device is what make nor how they measure in the lab.

Presumably, you are not saying you will never hear a difference between two such DACs. Easy to show taking some really bad DAC for one of them, so there is obviously some subjective threshold over which they can be different.

So, let us say you can fairly reliably identify which one (A or B when they are randomly switched around) you are listening to in the blind test. Again, this is possible above some subjective threshold of signal output difference between the two.

Now, are you saying

1. You won’t be able to say which one is “better” audibly for you subjectively OR
2. If you pick one as “better”, it is necessarily the one that is doing the least to the signal even when you have no prior knowledge of the measurements?

Thanks.
 

solderdude

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1. You won’t be able to say which one is “better” audibly for you subjectively OR
2. If you pick one as “better”, it is necessarily the one that is doing the least to the signal even when you have no prior knowledge of the measurements?

When you hear a difference in a controlled blind test you hear an objective difference that is clearly exceeding audible thresholds and one can check this with measurements.

Also one can have a preference... having a preference means you like something better it does not necesarilly mean it IS objectively better as in not altering the sound in any way.

The preference of one person may differ from those of another. Dark and rolled off to one person is another one's 'full bodied, warm and smooth' sound.
This you can't debate, only measurements and relations to non-sighted controlled listening tests.
 
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PrismaticOrb

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That seems odd. The SRH1840 has an impedance of 65 ohm and an efficiency of 96dB/mW. That means you'd need 1.28 Vrms to hit 110dB peaks (quite loud and likely only needed if you're listening to highly dynamic classical music). Atom high gain is 4.5x, so that means you'd only need 0.28 Vrms from the Note 9. Most phones/tables can manage 1 Vrms.

Are you running the Atom on high gain? If you're running on low gain (unity gain), then I could see how you'd need to turn the volume up pretty high on both.

Yeah, I can hardly hear anything if it's in low gain. The srh1840 are good at 70% phone volume and 75-80% volume with the jds at high gain but not for all types of music.

I do listen to mostly instrumental classical and jazz.. quite a bit of movie scores. With edm thrown into the mix here and there... Mostly odd stuff like john carpenter, goblin, com truise, VHS head and the like slow ambient but sizzling beats that really juice out the drivers in my headphones and show off their limited albeit pretty good soundstage as much as possible. I look for the same in classical and jazz. I love the brass, reed, and string instruments as cleanly recorded as possible.

Seems like a worthwhile investment to buy equipment that will wring out every once of spirit from these recordings. This is what brought me here :) trying to find the right setup.
 
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PrismaticOrb

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I do have to admit that I can't hear anything at the 20khz range anyway due to playing so many different high gain amps back in the day. So that roll off the airist r2r has probably wouldnt present itself to me. Just looking for something to give me clarity a wide soundstage and will work good with both tube and solid state. That's why I thought the airist fit the bill at the price. But it seems not very well received by you guys who know way more than me about hifi gear.

I blame my amps used over the years playing rock and hair metal(all of which I can hardly stand listening to anymore unless its soft and mellow)Mesa boogie road king, peavey 5150 II, vintage jcm800, ADA MP1 with the peavey 50/50 classic power amp. If that explains why I have incorporated the cheap zdt jr. Into my setup. I have a slight bias towards tubes. But do enjoy the crisp clarity of solid state for serious critical listening.. well as good as my ears allow.

I will say that even with the slight loss of high frequency hearing the hd6xx and the srh1840 are night and day in the treble dept. Even to my ears.
 
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audimus

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When you hear a difference in a controlled blind test you hear an objective difference that is clearly exceeding audible thresholds and one can check this with measurements.

Also one can have a preference... having a preference means you like something better it does not necesarilly mean it IS objectively better as in not altering the sound in any way.

The preference of one person may differ from those of another. Dark and rolled off to one person is another one's 'full bodied, warm and smooth' sound.
This you can't debate, only measurements and relations to non-sighted controlled listening tests.

Thanks for the response but here is my confusion in logic.

I think we can take as a hypothesis based on experiments that what (a) one subjectively perceives as good and (b) objectively measures as good in some established metric are uncorrelated. Not negatively or positively correlated. Speaking strictly objectively not as “in my experience” as the latter is subject to distortions via sample size and subjectivity.

So, when someone claims DAC A sounds better than DAC B (or others), it could very well mean that DAC A does not suffer as much from some added elements as DAC B (or others), not necessarily that DAC A is adding elements that are negative relative to others.So why would it pre-dispose one to not review DAC A or to view the claim as a necessarily negative mark against the vendor/manufacturer as implied earlier? In the interests of an objective, open mind for science. :)

Science can be useful in many ways. One of which is to differentiate wheat from the chaff not necessarily to find the perfect kernel. Especially, in the practical realm of limited resources for buying equipment.

For example, in other threads, a relatively inexpensive multi-channel DAC (Essence Evolve II-4k) was brought up by the vendor and later a generally positive review in Stereophile was linked by author based on hearing and considered better compared to another DAC (a miniDSP). These DACs are much more affordable to more people than say the top measurement-rated Okto DAC. It would be very useful to see tests and measurements (even from a scientific curiosity point of view) whether measurements reveal some objective difference between the miniDSP and the Essence and even more so compared to a cheap multi-channel DAC of the type one finds on Amazon at basement prices but almost exact same features as the Essence.

Is the vendor of Essence repackaging the same cheap DAC in a better chassis or is it actually a better engineered product that measures better and shows reasons why it might (or not be) worth several times more. Even if neither of them approach perfection in measurement metrics and despite subjective reviews. Yes, one cannot measure all but there are so few multi-channel DACs anyway.

While I read Stereophile to see what is going on in the industry, I find their focus in general, too out of reach for mainstream consumers in price and expectation. Is the audio science community sitting at the other extreme thumbing their noses at anything that does not reach some objective perfection?

This is not a criticism or a demand on anybody to do anything in their voluntary work, just as a point for self-reflection.
 

solderdude

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here is my confusion in logic

Can you describe in fewer words what was confusing.
I honestly tried to understand what you wrote and can make heads nor tails from your reply.
I read it more than 10 times and slowly but still don't get what it had to do with my post.

Is it about preference ?
Is it about comparing DACs ?
Is it about what science is about ?
The example you mention.. is it about it receiving different reviews?
is it about value ?
Is it about tests performed ?
is it about imitations or copies ?
is it about repackaging or own developments ?
Is it about the quantities of measurements ?
is it about multichannel DACs ?
What has stereophile to do with it ?
Is it about stereophile's preference to test boutique stuff ?
What and who needs self-reflection ?

This is not meant as criticism either but what is it what you were trying to make clear... I am not trolling you I honestly don't understand what you wrote about.
 

pwjazz

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Yeah, I can hardly hear anything if it's in low gain. The srh1840 are good at 70% phone volume and 75-80% volume with the jds at high gain but not for all types of music.

I do listen to mostly instrumental classical and jazz.. quite a bit of movie scores. With edm thrown into the mix here and there... Mostly odd stuff like john carpenter, goblin, com truise, VHS head and the like slow ambient but sizzling beats that really juice out the drivers in my headphones and show off their limited albeit pretty good soundstage as much as possible. I look for the same in classical and jazz. I love the brass, reed, and string instruments as cleanly recorded as possible.

Seems like a worthwhile investment to buy equipment that will wring out every once of spirit from these recordings. This is what brought me here :) trying to find the right setup.

I honestly think something must be misconfigured on your Note 9. I really think it would be worth a little digging to see why this combination is so quiet before buying new equipment.

This thread discusses some things you can look at.

https://forums.androidcentral.com/samsung-galaxy-note-9/906944-note-9-volume.html

Also some Google searches around "note 9 low volume" bring up various useful seeming tips.
 
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