[Advice needed] L30 vs. A50s + Custom cables - Pros/Cons ?

[Jimbob54]

Jimbo and Helicopter, I agree with both of you guys. Thankfully, no toddlers here, and none intended. We take great care of our HiFi gear. So even if someday we had amps with 4.4mm ports, it would still be OK. Why ? Because we intend to leave the interconnects permanently plugged to the amps (and never on the floor of course). Only the headphone cables will be plugged/unplugged every time. That is where we need the sturdy connectors... hence the mini-XLR.

I also want the connectors that are permanently plugged into the amps to be angled, to avoid accidents. That's why interconnects like these ones look great to me :

View attachment 106668

Last but not least, I have discovered that there are now modular multi-connector systems that would solve all the typical issues. Unfortunately they're really expensive, even in AliExpress.

Take a look at this one : https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005001463529250.html . It looks nice because you can easily switch from balanced 4.4mm to balanced 3.5mm or to unbalanced 3.5mm, but... 41 € for three connectors ?

There's also this one : https://www.aliexpress.com/item/32839690851.html . Pretty much the same... and even more expensive.

And there's also nice adapters like this one (DJ44C - 3.5mm unbalanced male to 4.4mm balanced female) : https://www.aliexpress.com/item/4000672404478.html . "Only 24 €" for a damn adapter And we would need two of them if we decided to go A50s. So, even more money : more expensive amps, more expensive balanced cables, plus adapters. It's not reasonable.

You'll need 4 pin mini xlr for balanced of course. Which I think exists (?)

 

[Jose Hidalgo]

You'll need 4 pin mini xlr for balanced of course. Which I think exists (?)

Yes, look at the OP, the cables part If I go unbalanced it will be 3P, if I go balanced it will be 4P.

 

[Jose Hidalgo]

I don't miss this one though :
And no, I don't seek the red/blue since november 11th. Actually my replacement amps will be black too. When I move on, I move on.

 

[kkeretic]

I swapped my L30 for the A50s with ~60€ surcharges 'coz I just don't trust it anymore and didn't want to wait for the fixes + some more weeks/months for the thing to really turn out to be fixed. So I've been listening to A50s for a couple of days now. On both Sundara and AKG K712 equalised with -7dB preamp, it is beyond threshold of pleasant listening volume even at 12-1-2 o'clock low gain. Pot tracking practically follows the pot of my old A50. The A50s is also significantly cooler after a couple of hours of use compared to the L30 that was just too warm to my taste after only a two hours of listening. And it's winter. I also plan to get parts to make a balanced cable, at least for Sundara, but following this discussion I see less and less real reasons to spend money on this. If there should be no difference in sound quality for these headphones I use, then I would really just spend the money and time for no benefits. But I have to admit I really liked the L30 from the very first minute. To be subjective, even the sound from it seemed a little bit more pleasant to listen to + it seemed to me that maybe, but just maybe, the bass was also a tiny bit deeper and more spacious. Don't know why, according to measurements, they should sound exactly the same and it's probably just my mind tricking me for some other reasons. And that’s the only thing which intrigues me and makes me want to go balanced way.

 

[Jose Hidalgo]

Thanks for your input. Let me give you my own insight, as some others are said here and in other threads :

• Balanced should make no difference at all sound-wise when levels are matched. Measurements show no difference at all.
• Balanced will only allow for higher output level (2x), so it will only be useful for extremely difficult to drive headphones.
• Balanced amps are more expensive, and balanced cables are more expensive for the same performance.
• Balanced would only be useful for very long lengths of cable (dozens of meters) that will never happen in headphone use.

As for the bass, since they're both Topping products with very similar and excellent measurements, I'd say it may be your mind playing tricks. Both products have extremely low distortion, and we are used to bass distortion. So when we listen to a product with very little distortion, it can result subjectively in bass seeming cleaner and "thinner" (no "phat bass", lol). That is objectively better, but it may require some time to get used to it. If after some time you still miss "phat bass", you can always add a hint of distortion using DSPs if you have a source PC.

 

[solderdude]

• Balanced should make no difference at all sound-wise when levels are matched. Measurements show no difference at all.
• Balanced will only allow for higher output level (2x), so it will only be useful for extremely difficult to drive headphones.
• Balanced amps are more expensive, and balanced cables are more expensive for the same performance.
• Balanced would only be useful for very long lengths of cable (dozens of meters) that will never happen in headphone use.

Balanced can make a difference sound-wise. Under the following conditions: The load impedance of the used single ended cable is low, the cable is long, the cable is thin and/or has a rather high resistance in the return (ground) path.
Measurements can show differences but these measurements aren't performed and are headphone(+cable) dependent.

Of course a 4 wire cable with the return wires connected in the plug have the same benefits as balanced in this regard.

Balanced can allow for a higher output level up to 2x in voltage, 4x in power and 6dB in level. However, with low impedance headphones and current limits being reach there can be anything between no difference and the differences as stated above.

Manufacturing costs wise the difference between balanced and not balanced cables is very little. It's just that more profit is made on those cables. They can do that because many are convinced they get better sound and have invested in more expensive equipment so obviously aren't bothered with higher costs.

 

[Vincent Kars]

Balanced should make no difference at all sound-wise when levels are matched. Measurements show no difference at all.

No, single ended is 1 amp, balanced is 2 amps. Of course distortion will increase if you use 2 instead of 1 amp.
If the distortion is low, you probably won't hear it but it can be measured e.g. Topping A50
THD+N 0,0006% single, 0,0016% balanced
See https://shenzhenaudio.com/products/...-amplifier-combined-with-topping-d50s-d50-p50

Balanced will only allow for higher output level (2x), so it will only be useful for extremely difficult to drive headphones.

Depends, if the single ended has a low out put, doubling it will help
If single ended is powerful, doubling is unneccesary

balanced cables are more expensive

Maybe because a lot of people are wiling to pay the most fancy prices for a wire.
A lot of headphone already do have a 2x2 wiring, just cut of the TRS and solder a TRRS on.

Balanced would only be useful for very long lengths of cable (dozens of meters) that will never happen in headphone use.

This is probably the common confusion between a true balanced connection (hot/cold/ground per channel) for interlinks with a differential amp at the receiver
and what they call "balanced" in the headphone world , a balanced amp driving a headphone over 2x 2 wires.

 

[Jose Hidalgo]

Balanced can make a difference sound-wise. Under the following conditions: The load impedance of the used single ended cable is low, the cable is long, the cable is thin and/or has a rather high resistance in the return (ground) path.

Thanks for your accurate reply Please just note that I also said that the cable needed to be long for balanced to make a difference. Much longer than our usual headphone cables anyway.

As for the price, I absolutely agree, it's all about higher margins :

• Balanced cables may have more conductors but their production price remains low
• Balanced connectors also cost pretty much the same to produce, but they are sold at a much higher price. A pentaconn should sell for about the same price as a 3.5mm jack, and yet it's much more expensive.

Resellers earn a lot of money based on the credulity and the naiveté of people who think that balanced will make a difference for their headphones, when 99.9% of the time it won't. Because like said a lot of conditions need to be reunited for it to begin to matter.

No, single ended is 1 amp, balanced is 2 amps. Of course distortion will increase if you use 2 instead of 1 amp.
If the distortion is low, you probably won't hear it but it can be measured e.g. Topping A50
THD+N 0,0006% single, 0,0016% balanced
See https://shenzhenaudio.com/products/...-amplifier-combined-with-topping-d50s-d50-p50

Agreed. I shouldn't have written that "measurements show no difference at all". I should have written "measurements show very little difference (not necessarily on balanced's favor BTW - THD being an example), and that difference can't be heard anyway, unless very specific conditions are met" (like said by solderdude).

I should also have made a more complete answer. I said "for extremely difficult to drive headphones" because I was assuming that the amp would be quite powerful, like my L30 are. There are indeed less powerful amps that could benefit from balanced (if they support balanced of course). It's a multi-factor equation : headphones impedance, headphones sensitivity, amp power (voltage and current). Depending on those factors, balanced may or may not be useful for additional power. If additional power is not required, then balanced isn't required.

This is probably the common confusion between a true balanced connection (hot/cold/ground per channel) for interlinks with a differential amp at the receiver
and what they call "balanced" in the headphone world , a balanced amp driving a headphone over 2x 2 wires.

Thanks for clarifying that part.

Conclusion : forgive me for not going into as much detail as you guys. But still, even after those clarifications, the fact remains that balanced seems to be completely useless for headphones 99.9% of the time.

 

[BartekG]

I swapped my L30 for the A50s with ~60€ surcharges 'coz I just don't trust it anymore and didn't want to wait for the fixes + some more weeks/months for the thing to really turn out to be fixed. So I've been listening to A50s for a couple of days now. On both Sundara and AKG K712 equalised with -7dB preamp, it is beyond threshold of pleasant listening volume even at 12-1-2 o'clock low gain. Pot tracking practically follows the pot of my old A50. The A50s is also significantly cooler after a couple of hours of use compared to the L30 that was just too warm to my taste after only a two hours of listening. And it's winter. I also plan to get parts to make a balanced cable, at least for Sundara, but following this discussion I see less and less real reasons to spend money on this. If there should be no difference in sound quality for these headphones I use, then I would really just spend the money and time for no benefits. But I have to admit I really liked the L30 from the very first minute. To be subjective, even the sound from it seemed a little bit more pleasant to listen to + it seemed to me that maybe, but just maybe, the bass was also a tiny bit deeper and more spacious. Don't know why, according to measurements, they should sound exactly the same and it's probably just my mind tricking me for some other reasons. And that’s the only thing which intrigues me and makes me want to go balanced way.

As I mentioned here https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...dac-combo-to-power-sundaras.19230/post-641445 I hear a difference between SE and balanced output but it's a small difference and my test is far from scientific. L30 has more power than A50s SE and that may influence the bass control. If you like the sound then don't bother, I needed a longer cable anyway.

 

[Jose Hidalgo]

AFAIK the Sundaras are not a demanding headphone, so you shouldn't be able to hear any difference with them once the volumes are perfectly matched between balanced and unbalanced.
That's why ASR is nice : because people here don't rely on subjective impressions.

 

[kkeretic]

AFAIK the Sundaras are not a demanding headphone, so you shouldn't be able to hear any difference with them once the volumes are perfectly matched between balanced and unbalanced.
That's why ASR is nice : because people here don't rely on subjective impressions.

Got the balanced cable for my Sundara + A50s today. After some time of listening some well known tracks and albums... Hm, probably just my imagination, but I would swear this little thing simply sounds more impressive through the balanced output. Something is brutally tricking my mind when I use this combo balanced. Is it really possible? When I first heard it, didn't stop laughing. Every now and then I look around to see who is walking behind me, what is going on downstairs . Seriously. Am I going crazy or is this little thing really doing something differently to Sundara balanced and unbalanced? Probably just some good day for music .

 

[Jose Hidalgo]

Thanks for your input kkeretic. Enjoy the music, that's all that matters Let us know the day you can do a double blind session with matched levels.

As for me, after all this discussion I'm clearly leaning towards unbalanced, because :

• It's less expensive (cheaper cables, cheaper DACs, cheaper amps)
• None of my current headphones (or wanted headphones) is so demanding that my L30s couldn't drive it
• The L30 specs prove that at least for my headphones it's as good as any balanced amp out there (or better), as far as the human ear can hear

Of course if I had decided to go balanced instead, I would have had to do something like this :

• Interconnects : Mini-XLR 4P (male) to mini-XLR 4P (female)
• Headphone cables : mini-XLR 4P (male) to 2 x headphone connectors
• Adapters : Mini-XLR 4P (female) to 4.4mm (male) / Mini-XLR 4P (female) to 3.5mm (male) / Mini-XLR 4P (female) to XLR 4P (male)...

... but it would be expensive plus a bit of a hassle, with no proven benefits for me. So I guess I'll stick with unbalanced and be happy with it.

 

[raif71]

I'm one of those people that don't prefer to crank up the volume and find myself leaving little or no headroom left so I'm liable to be using balanced if it is available because it is more powerful than SE. That said if level matched they might sound the same but for sure SE volume dial/level will be more than balanced and this just bugs me.

 

[Jose Hidalgo]

Just like you, I got a rush the first time I heard Meze over it's balanced cable, and I didnt have any expectations whatsoever.

So where does that rush come from ? The mystery continues...