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[advice] is a Schiit Vali “Tube” amp overkill for a HD800s and for pc FPS gaming only?

AmalfiMan

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Hello audio experts. You all have a fascinating hobby and I’m impressed with your knowledge.
My use case is 100% COD Warzone / FPS pc gaming. No streaming or anything like that, I just play video games. I have a pc corsair i9 12th rtx3090 with a MSI Z690 DDR5 motherboard.
Finally throwing in the towel and getting a HD800s after learning more about it.
Other gamers recommend Schiit Fulla as the minimum plug and play combo device. And others recommend a Tube style amp as they claim the HD800s needs that extra power.
My budget is $300 and space saving is very important.
 
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texugo

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The Sennheiser HD800s seem like extreme overkill for gaming, and feeding them with a motherboard DAC and the Schiit Vali is a pretty substantial quality mismatch with them.

The Vali has terrible performance compared to modern solid state gear (review here: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...chiit-vali-2-review-tube-headphone-amp.26614/)

As the HD800s are balanced, something like the Schiit Magnius would be a better fit, if you want to stick with Schiit (review: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...-magnius-balanced-headphone-amp-review.15252/).

If you don't already have an external DAC, an integrated DAC and headphone amp like the Topping DX7 Pro is probably a better match, but exceeds your budget.

You may want to consider scaling back from flagship headphones to something with a better cost/performance ratio and putting some extra funds towards a better source and headphone amp.
 
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AmalfiMan

AmalfiMan

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The Sennheiser HD800s seem like extreme overkill for gaming, and feeding them with a motherboard DAC and the Schiit Vali is a pretty substantial quality mismatch with them.

The Vali has terrible performance compared to modern solid state gear (review here: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...chiit-vali-2-review-tube-headphone-amp.26614/)

As the HD800s are balanced, something like the Schiit Magnius would be a better fit, if you want to stick with Schiit (review: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...-magnius-balanced-headphone-amp-review.15252/).

If you don't already have an external DAC, an integrated DAC and headphone amp like the Topping DX7 Pro is probably a better match, but exceeds your budget.

You may want to consider scaling back from flagship headphones to something with a better cost/performance ratio and putting some extra funds towards a better source and headphone amp.
Thank you. The reviews for HD800s describes it as consistently “comfortable” for long gaming sessions. That was my main critera.
Second is soundstage to hear crisp details with low bass. The reviews for other headsets priced from $200 to $1200 appears to not meet my criteria consistently.
I will check those amps you mentioned.
 

maverickronin

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Many people find the HD800 very comfortable because of the very large earcups and extremely open design. Your ear probably won't touch the inside and it breaths enough to keep it from getting hot and sweaty. There's probably something cheaper out there that's just as comfortable, but most consumer oriented headphones come and go with the seasons so I wouldn't have a clue what else to recommend.

You don't need to believe the mythology about getting an fancy amplifier for it. You might want a Hel instead of a Fulla for more power, or a Magni Heresy if you are staying with Schiit.
 

NiagaraPete

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You may want to look at the Senn 6xxx from Drop and a Topping EX5. Combined a lot less money.
 

DVDdoug

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is a Schiit Vali “Tube” amp overkill

Tubes became obsolete in the 1960s.* :p

Although it was (and is) possible to make good tube equipment, it's cheaper and easier with modern solid state electronics. And solid state electronics are more efficient and it doesn't age and eventually die like tubes. (Solid state electronics sometimes dies, but it's more "random" and it usually lasts longer.)

That thing probably has some solid state electronics with an added-extra tube stage for "tube vibe" (distortion). Or maybe they add a tube because some people are fascinated by them.


* Guitar players often prefer tubes, but a guitar amp isn't supposed to be high-fidelity and they often like the way the tube amp sounds when over-driven into distortion. And the all sound different so most guitarists have a preferred amp. A hi-fi amp is not supposed to have any particular sound... It's just supposed to amplify.
 
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AmalfiMan

AmalfiMan

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Many people find the HD800 very comfortable because of the very large earcups and extremely open design. Your ear probably won't touch the inside and it breaths enough to keep it from getting hot and sweaty. There's probably something cheaper out there that's just as comfortable, but most consumer oriented headphones come and go with the seasons so I wouldn't have a clue what else to recommend.

You don't need to believe the mythology about getting an fancy amplifier for it. You might want a Hel instead of a Fulla for more power, or a Magni Heresy if you are staying with Schiit.
Is a dac needed if I have this motherboard on a 2022 built pc? MSI Z690 DDR5
 

617

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Thank you. The reviews for HD800s describes it as consistently “comfortable” for long gaming sessions. That was my main critera.
Second is soundstage to hear crisp details with low bass. The reviews for other headsets priced from $200 to $1200 appears to not meet my criteria consistently.
I will check those amps you mentioned.
In my experience, all of the open sennheisers are extremely comfortable, both in terms of their physical fit and also the sound. Consider the HD650 (which measures better than the 800, iirc) and a good dac/amp combo. Topping and SMSL make good ones.

I haven't seen measurements of motherboard dacs but I do know that the audio the comes from motherboards is not great. Over the years I've experienced all kinds of noise, humming and weird noises correlated with graphics card activity.

Do you do any streaming or need audio input? An audio interface like a Motu M2 might be a good option for you - excellent DAC, excellent mic preamps and meters, good quality headphone amp. That would be my recommendation to anyone who needs quality audio in or out of a computer.
 
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AmalfiMan

AmalfiMan

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In my experience, all of the open sennheisers are extremely comfortable, both in terms of their physical fit and also the sound. Consider the HD650 (which measures better than the 800, iirc) and a good dac/amp combo. Topping and SMSL make good ones.

I haven't seen measurements of motherboard dacs but I do know that the audio the comes from motherboards is not great. Over the years I've experienced all kinds of noise, humming and weird noises correlated with graphics card activity.

Do you do any streaming or need audio input? An audio interface like a Motu M2 might be a good option for you - excellent DAC, excellent mic preamps and meters, good quality headphone amp. That would be my recommendation to anyone who needs quality audio in or out of a computer.
thx, will check this out......lol. I thought this going to be a plug n play, like I my gaming PS5 headsets. I never heard of a dac or an amp until yesterday. I been watching these videos from Josh Velour and DMS and others.
 
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AmalfiMan

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In my experience, all of the open sennheisers are extremely comfortable, both in terms of their physical fit and also the sound. Consider the HD650 (which measures better than the 800, iirc) and a good dac/amp combo. Topping and SMSL make good ones.

I haven't seen measurements of motherboard dacs but I do know that the audio the comes from motherboards is not great. Over the years I've experienced all kinds of noise, humming and weird noises correlated with graphics card activity.

Do you do any streaming or need audio input? An audio interface like a Motu M2 might be a good option for you - excellent DAC, excellent mic preamps and meters, good quality headphone amp. That would be my recommendation to anyone who needs quality audio in or out of a computer.
ok I found this Motu M2 - it has the new USB-C port which works with my PC. So that USB-C cable will power this device? My seating is 15 feet to the PC so I hope I can find a cable that long.
Also, looks like I need to buy an adapter to connect the HD800 cables to the larger port.
 

617

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ok I found this Motu M2 - it has the new USB-C port which works with my PC. So that USB-C cable will power this device? My seating is 15 feet to the PC so I hope I can find a cable that long.
Also, looks like I need to buy an adapter to connect the HD800 cables to the larger port.
The motu is powered by USB c, yes. No other cable needed.

I'm almost certain the hd800 comes with a big plug (1/4", also called 6.3mm). You will probably need an extension cable though.

The advantages of the MOTU are that it has clean audio quality in and out. Amp power is 23mw which is about normal for a USB powered device.

Most of the audio quality comes from the headphone. As long as the dac and amp are clean and sufficiently powerful it's not going to make much of a difference in sound.
 

retroflex

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Like 617 says, as long as the power is there and the device is competently designed, you're good. You should be very skeptical about claims that this and this DAC or this and this amplifier will improve the sound quality.

You might also want to start reading up about EQ (equalization), that's something that can really improve the sound. Check out Amir's review of the HD800S for a good starting point. You're for sure going to want the bass boost, but EQ'ing the higher frequencies is a bit trickier in my experience.
 

maverickronin

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Is a dac needed if I have this motherboard on a 2022 built pc? MSI Z690 DDR5

It may provide a cleaner signal depending on your mobo's onboard sound card but it's not strictly required.

Do you already use standard analog headphones with it? If so, and you don't get any hiss or weird noises coming though then you can just get an 1/8" / 3.5mm to RCA cable and connect your mobo to a dedicated amp like the Magni Heresy.

If you do get noise through it then a separate DAC may help. It's also possible to get ground loops between the DAC, amp, and the PC that will add noise which wasn't there before.

ok I found this Motu M2 - it has the new USB-C port which works with my PC. So that USB-C cable will power this device? My seating is 15 feet to the PC so I hope I can find a cable that long.
Also, looks like I need to buy an adapter to connect the HD800 cables to the larger port.

That's a great DAC and ADC but the headphone out it pretty weak, even weaker than the Fulla. It would be great if you wanted to add a pro microphone for your voice chat or something though.

Most audiophile headphones are much less efficient than typical consumer headphones and you may not get a satisfying volume out of the Motu M2 or the Fulla with the HD800S. Don't believe the pseudo-magical claims a lot of people make about how amps alter the sound. It's mostly audiophool mythology. There two most important things in an amp are the residual noise level (so sensitive in ear 'phones don't hiss) and power output (so less sensitive headphones can go loud enough).

If your onboard sound is already clean you can go with just an amplifier like the Schiit Magni 3 Heresy, JDS Atom Amp+, or Topping L30.

If your onboard audio isn't that great then a Schiit Hel or Topping DX3 Pro+ are worth checking out.

Also, regarding the HD650 and it's variants. They are very light so as to never weigh you down and fairly open so your ears shouldn't get too hot. On the other hand they clamp tighter which may get annoying after a while and have smaller and shallower ear cups which will almost certainly press against your ears. I have both the 650 and the original 800 and for me the 800's comfort wins by a mile. Of course a lot of comfort is personal so whatever you go make sure to buy from a place with a a good return policy or used so you can resell without much of a loss

The 650's soundstage doesn't touch the 800S' either. If you need positional audio with comfort and can afford it, the 800S is excellent choice.

There are some gamers on here, but this forum is primarily focused towards audio in the contexts of primarily hi-fi music and secondarily home theater so most people here probably weight their priorities a bit differently than what is required for competitive FPS gaming. I'm a gamer too, but in much different genres, so even I might be leaving something out. :)
 
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AmalfiMan

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It may provide a cleaner signal depending on your mobo's onboard sound card but it's not strictly required.

Do you already use standard analog headphones with it? If so, and you don't get any hiss or weird noises coming though then you can just get an 1/8" / 3.5mm to RCA cable and connect your mobo to a dedicated amp like the Magni Heresy.

If you do get noise through it then a separate DAC may help. It's also possible to get ground loops between the DAC, amp, and the PC that will add noise which wasn't there before.



That's a great DAC and ADC but the headphone out it pretty weak, even weaker than the Fulla. It would be great if you wanted to add a pro microphone for your voice chat or something though.

Most audiophile headphones are much less efficient than typical consumer headphones and you may not get a satisfying volume out of the Motu M2 or the Fulla with the HD800S. Don't believe the pseudo-magical claims a lot of people make about how amps alter the sound. It's mostly audiophool mythology. There two most important things in an amp are the residual noise level (so sensitive in ear 'phones don't hiss) and power output (so less sensitive headphones can go loud enough).

If your onboard sound is already clean you can go with just an amplifier like the Schiit Magni 3 Heresy, JDS Atom Amp+, or Topping L30.

If your onboard audio isn't that great then a Schiit Hel or Topping DX3 Pro+ are worth checking out.

Also, regarding the HD650 and it's variants. They are very light so as to never weigh you down and fairly open so your ears shouldn't get too hot. On the other hand they clamp tighter which may get annoying after a while and have smaller and shallower ear cups which will almost certainly press against your ears. I have both the 650 and the original 800 and for me the 800's comfort wins by a mile. Of course a lot of comfort is personal so whatever you go make sure to buy from a place with a a good return policy or used so you can resell without much of a loss

The 650's soundstage doesn't touch the 800S' either. If you need positional audio with comfort and can afford it, the 800S is excellent choice.

There are some gamers on here, but this forum is primarily focused towards audio in the contexts of primarily hi-fi music and secondarily home theater so most people here probably weight their priorities a bit differently than what is required for competitive FPS gaming. I'm a gamer too, but in much different genres, so even I might be leaving something out. :)
I noticed the Motu M2 has a USB-C port. The other devices mentioned has RCA ports, that connects to my PC? Any differences in performance? I just ask because USB-C is used in many of our newer devices already.
 

maverickronin

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I noticed the Motu M2 has a USB-C port. The other devices mentioned has RCA ports, that connects to my PC? Any differences in performance? I just ask because USB-C is used in many of our newer devices already.

That's just because the Motu is an external DAC so it needs a digital connection to the PC. Your mobo's onboard sound card is just an internal DAC so it's output is already analog and it uses a standard analog cable to connect to headphones, amplifies, powered speakers, etc.

If your motherboard's onboard sound is already good, then you can just add a standard analog amplifier to give yourself enough power for something like the HD800s. If not then you would need an outboard DAC, which necessarily uses a digital digital connection, which today is some form of USB.
 
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AmalfiMan

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That's just because the Motu is an external DAC so it needs a digital connection to the PC. Your mobo's onboard sound card is just an internal DAC so it's output is already analog and it uses a standard analog cable to connect to headphones, amplifies, powered speakers, etc.

If your motherboard's onboard sound is already good, then you can just add a standard analog amplifier to give yourself enough power for something like the HD800s. If not then you would need an outboard DAC, which necessarily uses a digital digital connection, which today is some form of USB.
Thanks. For an amp only, and using the mobo dac, its a 20 feet journey to where the amp is located. I play from my sofa.
Should I run a long AV cable, or just use a 3.5mm cable?
 

maverickronin

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Thanks. For an amp only, and using the mobo dac, its a 20 feet journey to where the amp is located. I play from my sofa.
Should I run a long AV cable, or just use a 3.5mm cable?

It would probably be best to run a long length of the 1/8" to RCA cable I linked earlier from the PC to the amp on a table or something by the sofa so you can reach the volume control on the amp.
 
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AmalfiMan

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It would probably be best to run a long length of the 1/8" to RCA cable I linked earlier from the PC to the amp on a table or something by the sofa so you can reach the volume control on the amp.
awesome. I found it as 25 feet: Amazon Basics 3.5mm to 2-Male RCA Adapter Audio Stereo Cable - 25 Feet.
-----Silly questions - do AV cables have that whole debate on different types? For example, HDMI cables now has several types such as 2.1 at 48 GBPS etc. Same with USB-C where its available as 2.0, 3.0, 3.1, 3.2 etc.
 
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Katji

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Same with USB-C where its available as 2.0, 3.0, 301, 3,2 etc.
For audio, it doesn't matter.

DAC [not dac] = Digital [to] Analog Converter. If you ever had a CD player, it had a DAC inside it. To convert digital audio data [computer and CD] to analog electrical signal.
 
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