Advice before listening session (closed over-ear 1000-1500 USD range)

[Hoeksel]

A year ago I sold my simple USB-powered DAC and Campfire Audio Cascades. I wanted to de-clutter my desktop (laptop + DAC + HP), reduce the amount of headphones (BT TWS became my main driver) and I was listening less to music. From a music point of view my Cascades where "perfect", I loved the speed, bass control and detail level. It was my first quality HP and I selected it from a bunch of HP's by listening (there is a great shop 1,5 hrs away from me where you can listen all afternoon to their whole range). What I did not like as much (long term) is the weight and comfort, long listening sessions where hard and it would not stay fixed if I moved my head. In the mean time I also went from contacts to glasses so comfort is now even more important.

Mainly due to ASR I bought a Topping DX5 II (and desktop speakers; connected to my Mac Air) so next step is an appointment with my favorite shop to plan a HP listening session. I started reading about the options I have there and selected a top 3, but this thread is hopefully helpful to get some advise on what to check for or what user experience is. In the end, an afternoon listening session is better than buying online yet it is still short for such a spending that I plan to use for > 5 years. Important to state my music is 90+ % extreme black metal, so it goes from horrible recording quality to uber-complex multilayered chaos. My gifted brain can deal with that, I love technical listening and discovering new layers in the chaos. What I absolutely detest is uncontrolled/muddy/undefined bass. In this genre (distorted ;-)) vocals are key. The Cascades are a good reference, anything with that sound (or better) but more comfort will do.

HP needs to be over-ear, closed, run loud (I prefer 4,4 mm Pentacon) and be comfortable (weight, glasses compatible, fixation) for at least 2 hr listening sessions. I do not really have a budget limit but I was thinking in the 1000-1500 USD range (Cascades where ~ 1000 USD when I got them).

My current top 3 to check, in order of preference (on paper) is:

- Dan Clark Noire X
- Audeze LCD-XC
- Audeze LCD-2 Padauk (they also have the Classic), both closed version

Alternatives available for listening that are potentially interesting:

- Sennheiser HD 820 (discounted)
- final Audio DX4000CL
- Meze Audio STRADA
- They also have brands like Focal, Hifiman, Beyerdynamic.....but they do not appeal to me and/or most are open.

Any comment helping to prepare for my listening session is appreciated!

 

[solderdude]

LCD2 = open
LCD2 CB = closed

Glasses that have arms creating a gap between the pad and skin where the pad should meet the skin is a recipe for low bass loss.
Thin arms that rest against the skin where the pads meet the skin will be fine.

The same goes for hair between the pad and skin.

Some are bothered by weight and/or high clamping force.
Also some prefer cloth/velour in warmer climates as leather and pleather (as well as some velour) can get sweaty.
Some are bothered by warm ears as all closed headphones need to be really sealed around the ears to work properly.
Pads and clamping force are important aspects for longer listening sessions.
Much more so than tonality as that can easily be EQ'ed.
Clamping force often can be lowered a bit.

Not all closed headphones are very closed (think Fostex and Denon) as most need a 'port' to the world outside.

There is the HDB 630 and HD620S in the Sennheiser stable as well.

 

[Hoeksel]

LCD2 = open
LCD2 CB = closed

They do have the closed versions of both, I did not realize there is also an open version. I will adapt my text to avoid confusion. Thanks.

 

[Hoeksel]

Quicker than planned, I had my session today! I listened on my own system (Mac Air M4, Tidal HiFi exclusive mode, Topping DX5 II). Just writing my afternoon experience, maybe it can help someone although my subjective experience is probably never the same for somebody else.

Order was:

- DCA Noire X
- Audeze LCD-2 Closed (3rd)
- Final Audio DX4000CL (1st)
- Meze Audio Strada
- Sennheiser HD 820 (2nd)

My experience, as short as possible was ..... surprising. Important to re-state I listen mainly to non-audiophile music, being black metal.

DCA Noire X was "horrendous". I was flabbergasted, so bad. The shop owner did not understand my description and my horror, so he connected a RME DAC. What I learned is that the Topping is unable to control these head phones (already regret buying the Topping based on reviews iso listening). Ah well, DCA was when driven by the RME still unable to deal with the dynamics of my metal and was pretty boring. I can imagine people like the sound for sure, but this is not for me.

Audeze LCD-2 was a lot easier to drive and for me significantly nicer. Better on the RME than the Topping but the difference was way smaller than with DCA. Sigh.....stupid Topping. And again, on both DAC's not able to deal with the dynamics of my music. The more relaxed music I play was pretty good on these though, loved the vocals.

Now that the shop owner knows what I look for he connected on his own advice the Final Audio DX4000CL. I liked it instantly! Way better dealing with the dynamics, more fun, I started banging. The difference between RME and Topping I was unable to hear (did not try to hard as I was very pleased already on my Topping).

Than he connected the Meze, I was done quickly. "Canny" (blikkerig in Dutch) so no thank you.

On my request I tried the Sennheiser HD 820 (only on the Topping). For me it was very different than the DX4000CL but on par for liking. It was more comfortable to wear, more airy/relaxed but the DX4000CL was more dynamic/fun/impactful. Did not dare to try on the RME as that would increase the budget to > 2x the plan.

At the end I switched a lot between the DX4000CL and the 820 HD (on the Topping) and decided for the DX4000CL. Still not sure which one I liked the best, so fun/dynamics and budget won from pure relaxed airy comfort (I expect no > 2 hr listening sessions).

Main learnings are, again, listen >>> reviews and 2, my previous Cascades where spot on for me (if I ignore discomfort)!

 

[DVDdoug]

In the end, an afternoon listening session is better than buying online

I agree! Different people have different tastes. Still, it's good to double-check the measurements because you can't really listen "blind" with headphones. We can be biased by brand name or price, etc.

I wouldn't ignore headphones under $1000. With headphones there is almost no correlation between price and sound quality.

it's hard to believe there's anything wrong with your Topping so I wouldn't worry about the electronics at all. It's important to level-match when comparing.... "Louder" usually sounds better. (Of course if you can't go as loud as you want without distortion, that is a valid consideration with the headphones or amplifier.)

I'm not sure what you mean by "dynamics"... Loudness??? Headphones and headphone amps are linear so they don't compress (or change) the dynamics unless they are over-driven into Clipping (distortion) and then you normally perceive the distortion before any loss of dynamics.

Dynamics come from the performance/production.

Headphone "sound" is mostly frequency response:
Harman Curve
Understanding Headphone Measurements (video)

 

[Hoeksel]

What I mean with "dynamics", let me try and clarify. My music is fast, multi-layered and has extreme dynamics in speed, frequency, amplitude. Head phones like the DCA and Audeze can't keep up and everything becomes a muddy mess (according my brain). So they are "to slow to respond" and/or "too slow to stop responding". The Campfire Audio and my new DX4000CL do not have that problem. They resolve very good. Not sure what that would be in "ASR terminology". But what I mean is, in my eyes, something different than volume or frequency response (I am aware of both). In the end I ignored all specs (and brands) and went for "me likes". The only thing that steered me in all honesty is price, as in for a thousand bucks it can't be bad. The cheap HP's I had in the past or from work are horrible so I stayed away from that.

As for volume, even knowing this, yet I was still surprised how huge these differences can be during the session! For example the normal volume of the DCA would make you deaf if you apply the same on the Audeze. And that specs are meaningless on paper, I heard myself the Topping is incapable of driving the DCA.

This is only my second decent HP/DAC set, I hope I will use it more than my previous set and enjoy music. Typically I want to use electronics > 5 years so it will be some time before my next set. While writing this enjoying my new purchase, also at home it sounds great!

 

[ZolaIII]

With electrostatic/planars you don't get trumh - slam, with dynamic you lose speed. When you cut dynamic over they Fs to keep their excursion linear and too where groop dalay reaches 6 ms (or bit above) you get both with expense of sub bass extension (or part of it). Then again that's not music which excels with such low range so it shouldn't be a problem anyway.
Regarding good seal easy to put on it's achievable for closed design (but rare) with accustic optimisation for it but at expense of pasive isolation.
I found my peece with Denon AH-D5200 and I run them most of the time with apple USB C dongle costume EQ-ed and cut under 18 Hz.
As Solderdude has a quite good methodology and large enough database start digging/searching there now when you have highlighted what's important (grrop delay to 6 ms and little to no refractions along with good FR and aim to your pina/ear regarding highs).

 

[ZolaIII]

@Hoeksel what are your most favorite one's that you have already and what would you like to improve with them regarding sound (I can't do comfort)? All what is valid for speakers certainly is same for headphones including psy how we hear. Decay times play a role to a point what's posible to be reproduced not getting swollen by it (still standing wave that didn't lose enough amplitude). It's not true how speed of sound is the same. I mean it is for what in nature is considered non standing wave (above 45 Hz to certain point infra sound used differently to mesure distance). Under that it's really more seismic than sound and starts to limp which becomes progressive under 20 Hz so we perceive it more like a trace or a tail. New ISO 226 2023 ELC takes it in consideration by increase in amplitude (how otherwise). You don't need that, you need stressed out driver with both more DR headroom cut to 25 Hz (with good headphones or mighty big subwoofer). You will nead a bit of half way (wet/dry) reverb with headphones and to average loud listening SPL lv (Harman or whatever), you will be limited to how quiet you can listen with headphones (and it's important to limit your self regarding maximum program loudness). With speakers it's easier as you cut propagation off fundamentals with crossovers so that more severe ELC boost can be accommodated all the way up to it's knee (105 Hz). Most important areas are the same (two stage up to shoulder low bass base and mid bass [ritam, drum, beet section] and transition to mids RT decay 18/24 dB). It's still all about timing or time domain if you wish. My Metal head days are long gone and even then I whose on my own hand.