Adding sub ?

[Error79]

Well i have bought Wharfdale evo 4.3, now connected to my NAD c320 (will be changed in time), sound is cristal, voice sounds amazing, very detailed by my opinion, all perfect but ... always but .... bass sounds very slim, speakes just don't hava punch, .... i basicly like lower bass in sound picture but this sounds out of balace. Specialy if you listnen rock, metal or something like that, they just don't sound good.
I'm not fan of changing speakers, because basicly i like them, so what are my options ?
Will be any change with stroneger amp. Don't expect too much from that .....
Second adding sub whoofer ? Never consider that before, don't have any exp. whit that .... how will efect on rest of sound ? How to choose one ?
Ah yes i use the only for music .... no video, tv ....
Tnx.
V.

 

[kyuu]

Will be any change with stroneger amp. Don't expect too much from that .....

Yes, I wouldn't expect any improvement with a different amp.

Second adding sub whoofer ? Never consider that before, don't have any exp. whit that .... how will efect on rest of sound ? How to choose one ?

Assuming it's integrated well, it should only improve the sound. As for choosing one, that depends on a lot of factors. Budget? Where are you located? Size constraints? Aesthetic constraints? Since your amp does not have any bass management, you will need a subwoofer that handles the crossover (though most options are capable of doing that).

You might want to consider adding DSP/EQ to your system, as asides from integrating the subwoofer from your mains you may have an issue with room modes causing the bass to sound "boomy" with the subwoofer adding a lot of extra energy in the lower octaves.

 

[Daverz]

"Punch" is more about the mid-bass, so I don't think a subwoofer will add what you are looking for. A sub will fill in the bottom octaves, and if used with a crossover (provided by an AVR, miniDSP, or similar electronics) can take some strain off the mains.

What is the size of the room the speakers are in? How are the speakers and listening position set up (distance from the wall behind the speakers, distance from each speaker to listening position)? What locations have you tried?

 

[DVDdoug]

Will be any change with stroneger amp. Don't expect too much from that .....

Probably not. Are you turning-up the bass? A more powerful amplifier will help if you are pushing your amplifier into clipping/distortion. Although it can be hard to tell if the amp or speakers are distorting.

Second adding sub woofer ? Never consider that before, don't have any exp. whit that .... how will efect on rest of sound ? How to choose one ?
Ah yes i use the only for music .... no video, tv ....

A good one will probably help a lot. And it will have a "volume control" to adjust the relative level of the sub to your taste.

But to integrate it "properly" you need a crossover to filter the deep bass out of your main speakers. (The sub almost always has a low-pass filter so that's not a problem.)

Some subwoofers have line-level "pass-through" with a crossover but that has to go in front of your power amplifier and I don't know if your NAD has preamp-out and power-amp in.

The "standard way" to add a subwoofer is with an AVR which will have a crossover ("bass management"), a line-level subwoofer output for an active sub, and speaker outputs for the main speakers.

Although "size isn't everything", you probably want at-least a 12-inch woofer. (That's a bit less cone area than your 4 woofers.)



...I was never satisfied with the bass from my DIY speakers (although they were "large" with 12-inch woofers) until I build a pair of 15-inch subwoofers.

 

[effj]

I have a pair of Wharfedale EVO 4.4s, and have the same experience as you that they aren’t sufficiently full range. To your question in the other thread about amps, I have tried a variety of amps with my EVOs and they all sound similar to me: NAD C316BEE V2, WiiM Amp, Fosi V3 Mono pair, Douk Audio A5 (currently using this), Rotel RA-1572 MKII, Behringer A800, and Sony STR-DH590 AVR. Changing the amp alone didn’t seem to improve bass performance (even with the high-powered A800); but using a 2-way crossover (or independent high-pass and low-pass filters) and a subwoofer has made all the difference for me. Keep in mind, as others can explain, that accurate integration requires some effort. For my setup, I’m happy enough with manually tweaking the crossover/filter setting(s) using my ears. It’s better than the muddy alternative of doing nothing. If you buy a subwoofer, another important consideration is to find the right model; it should have a sufficiently low frequency range, or else it won’t improve your EVOs much. The Klipsch SPL-120 is the subwoofer I use with the EVOs, and I’m sure people can give other examples.

 

[Error79]

Thank you all for reply, where to star, budget ? I guess around 200-300€ for something used, i wodn't invest too much and then found that i don't like setup (ofc if i change speakers now i will be satisfied whit bass won't like anything else on new speakers lose - loose situation )
Positioning and room size .... well speakers are separated 2,6m and around 3,2m from sitting position, room 3,5 x8 m but "listening position" is e.g. 4x3 m
I didn't ask but as i see look like active subs have advantage over passive ? (Will look on net integration of subwoofer whit amp. Without subwoofer managment).
Will i will try to borrow some subwoofer if i can finde and try to see how it will sound, but don't know too much ppl whit decent subwoofer if they have it it is part of soundbar setup and i don't think it is option .....
If not will try to finde something second hand ....

 

[AlmaAtaKZ]

 

[Daverz]

How far are the speakers from the wall behind them? What distances from the wall have you tried?

Also, what is your preferred volume? You can measure this with a phone app like the NIOSH app.

Does the bass control on the amp have a positive effect?

In my experience, a single sub just adds some authority to the bottom octave, and can improve dynamics a bit, but won't do anything for a thin sounding mid-bass balance. Things that can improve that are

* moving the speakers and listening chair around to try to improve the balance
* room treatment. But to effect low frequencies with room treatments is expensive and often not practical.
* EQ. This can be pretty simple for streaming as some streaming apps have built in EQ ability. If you have other sources it may require more electronics.

You can do audio measurements with a phone and some pink noise or warble tones, but you may eventually want to invest in a measurement mic.

 

[Error79]

Tnx Daverz for sugestion, speakers are around 25cm from wall, they were around 20 and it looks like i have some change (even they don't have back ports).
Amp bass control have some effect but it cause change in clarety of sound picture it get "blury" what i don't like.
Well (living) room tretmana is not option ask my wife .
EQ is good sugestion will do some try's on that lookls like simlyest solution for start.

 

[ZolaIII]

Seams EVO's have a boosted midrange, bass is there it just doesn't get in front. It's not a easy task to properly integrate subwoofer's. Play with DSP and get measurement microphone.

 

[Keith_W]

I tried to look for measurements online for your speakers and I could not find any.

For a 3 way floorstander with 2 woofers like that, I would expect it to have some bass extension. It may be possible that your lack of bass extension may be due to poor positioning of the speakers and listening position.

Before you consider a cure, you need a diagnosis. So get yourself a measurement microphone and find out what is going on.

 

[ZolaIII]

I tried to look for measurements online for your speakers and I could not find any.

View attachment 445256

For a 3 way floorstander with 2 woofers like that, I would expect it to have some bass extension. It may be possible that your lack of bass extension may be due to poor positioning of the speakers and listening position.

Before you consider a cure, you need a diagnosis. So get yourself a measurement microphone and find out what is going on.

Plenty measurements for 4.4 and 4.2 so based on that and similar experience reports.

Looking for measurements of Elac Carina fs 247.4 and Wharfedale Evo 4.4

I'm on speaker hunt (2k euro budget) and have found myself attracted to two models which according to internet hearsay should be neutral speakers with high fidelity to recordings and full range reproduction: * Elac Carina fs 247.4 * Wharfedale Evo 4.4 Wondering if anyone has seen measurements...

www.audiosciencereview.com

 

[Keith_W]

Plenty measurements for 4.4 and 4.2 so based on that and similar experience reports.

He has the Evo 4.3 - I could not find measurements for this particular model. I suppose it would be reasonable to assume that the 4.3 has similar bass extension to the more expensive 4.4 model:

Looks like it's -3 to -4dB between 30Hz and 150Hz. Below 30Hz it drops like a rock.

I would not attempt to fill in a deficiency up to 150Hz with a sub. Equalisation with DSP is a better tool. A sub may or may not be needed, it all depends on what the room sweep looks like and whether the OP feels the need to fill in that gap between 20Hz - 30Hz.

 

[Oddball]

I would start with room EQ and boosting the low end curve. Seems like speakers have decent extension per graph above.

IMO a good subwoofer or two is a way to go especially for the ones that, as a matter of preference, like to add a bit of low end beyond reference. There is the thorny sub integration part, but most things in life are not easy or perfect.

 

[Error79]

Thank you all for help, this is nice way to learn something new, measurements would be perfect but dont think i can finde measure mic. so I will try to finde some mobile app that can give some basice info. (Any suggestion ?) Need help whit graph, mid - bass looks very nice and then drop .... is that mean that speaker will always have low-bass 3-4 db under mid - bass ? Speaker can't produce more bass or can be changed by adding more bass from source (amp.) ? (Speakers are capable physically of producing more bass). Something litlle of topic (or not) what is opinion/exp. on Dirac live ?