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Adding bypass capacitors correctly to a crossover?

It seems these bypass caps have helped in that the attack has gotten quicker - not by a lot but noticeable.
Some sobering numbers (at 20kHz).
2uF = 3.9 ohm
0.015uF = 530 ohm

This means the current through the 2uF cap is 133x higher than what flows through the 15nF.
And not just 20kHz but for every frequency this is the case... a factor 133.
In other words the signal passing through the 'bypass' cap is 42dB lower than what goes through the 15nF.

As an experiment remove the 2x 1uF cap and only use the 15nF. You will hear nothing coming out of the tweeter... well perhaps with your ear against it.
That's what the 15nF 'adds'.

Using bypass capacitors can help with decoupling capacitors (big time even for high speed circuits > 1MHz) but does absolutely nothing for coupling caps (filter caps) other than change the filter frequency minutely lower.
 
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I think the idea of bypass capacitors in crossovers is to get the eventual positive effects of high price boutique capacitors for a lower price, since it is usually cheaper to combine a bigger "average" capacitor with a small high end capacitor than using just one big high end capacitor. How much benefit high priced capacitor really have I don't know, I typically struggle to hear these differences as long as you stay away from cheap electrolytical capacitors (with high tollerance and poor ESR, 2 obvious reasons to avoid these). For me reasonable quality is just good enough. Anyway many people really took a lot of effort to find the best matching capicator. E.g. in a recent german video in Franks Werkstatt der Lautsprechertechnik Frank tried various options for 3,3uF capacitor including 2 combinations (2,2uF+1,0uF and 2,7uF+ 0,47uF) and ended up picking a single expensive 3.3uF Mundorf MCap EVO SilverGold Oil (50 Euro) for the Mundorf AMT U60W1.1 he used in his project. Anyway I would assume the capacity of the bypass cap needs to be in some range of the other cap otherwise no audible signal at all would go through it.
 
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When looking at your crossover picture it looks like you already use some decent / expensive Janzen Superior Z-cap, so there is probaly little/nothing a bypass cap can improve here and it should be significalty better than an original vintage AA crossover. Looks like the original schematic of the AA crossover can be found here.
 
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Bypass? In the diagram above I see caps in parallel, in which case their values add. Is this not just to get close to a specific desired value when using standard cap values?
Using a very small value highest grade possible polypropylene Cap run in parallel with a NP Electrolytic is supposedly meant to allow faster transients through & somehow trick the NP Cap that it is actually better or now works better when used in speaker crossovers, usually 100th - 400th the value of the NP Cap, just what i read, i play bass so would'nt know but some hifi speaker makers do this because there cheaper than big Mundorf caps & smaller in size, many makers....
 
Using a very small value highest grade possible polypropylene Cap run in parallel with a NP Electrolytic is supposedly meant to allow faster transients through & somehow trick the NP Cap that it is actually better or now works better when used in speaker crossovers, usually 100th - 400th the value of the NP Cap, just what i read, i play bass so would'nt know but some hifi speaker makers do this because there cheaper than big Mundorf caps & smaller in size, many makers....
That is exactly what I was shooting for, the Auricap XO’s being better than the Jantzen Superior-Z’s but I found it a very slight improvement, if any. Maybe a hair sharper, clearer maybe with a better attack which I mentioned earlier meaning all frequencies especially the mids and highs coming together more. It’s really hard to explain, please forgive me.
 
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Using a very small value highest grade possible polypropylene Cap run in parallel with a NP Electrolytic is supposedly meant to allow faster transients through & somehow trick the NP Cap that it is actually better or now works better when used in speaker crossovers, usually 100th - 400th the value of the NP Cap, just what i read, i play bass so would'nt know but some hifi speaker makers do this because there cheaper than big Mundorf caps & smaller in size, many makers....
OK, maybe that's what is said - I have not come across it or seen any measurements of the effect... I'm not saying it's not real but my guess was that it's about trimming to a specific C value for precise filters. Maybe there are L & R characteristics that count in the various caps.
 
Using a very small value highest grade possible polypropylene Cap run in parallel with a NP Electrolytic is supposedly meant to allow faster transients through & somehow trick the NP Cap that it is actually better or now works better when used in speaker crossovers, usually 100th - 400th the value of the NP Cap, just what i read, i play bass so would'nt know but some hifi speaker makers do this because there cheaper than big Mundorf caps & smaller in size, many makers....
Really? What is a 'faster transient'? You just need to get 20kHz through.

Sounds like Rhythm, Pace and Timing all over again..

S.
 
I think the idea of bypass capacitors in crossovers is to get the eventual positive effects of high price boutique capacitors for a lower price, since it is usually cheaper to combine a bigger "average" capacitor with a small high end capacitor than using just one big high end capacitor.
A wrong idea. First, boutique= snake oil. Combining a big cap with a tiny cap means the tiny cap adds almost nothing. Like solder dude explained only 1/133 of the current goes thru the small cap, which is (1/133)^2 of the power that gets to your tweeter (-40 db). it adds nothing.
 
Some professionally designed passive crossovers have small value caps in parallel with the larger NP caps that figure into the LCR arithmetic -- e.g. "C3" and "C4" in this JBL schematic from the 1990s: View attachment 528219
So a one off from JBL is supposed to prove this works? How many modern JBLs do this? Why dont they if its benificial?
 
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So a one off from JBL is supposed to prove this works? How many modern JBLs do this? Why dont they if its benificial?
I didn't offer that to "prove" anything other than the fact that it's been done before by a legit manufacturer that no doubt had some reason or other for adding an extra component. BTW, it's not a "one off" -- here's another example from JBL:
 

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I didn't offer that to "prove" anything other than the fact that it's been done before by a legit manufacturer that no doubt had some reason or other for adding an extra component. BTW, it's not a "one off" -- here's another example from JBL:
I should have said cherry picked speakers. If theres an advantage why dosnt JBL use them in all there speakers?
 
I should have said cherry picked speakers. If theres an advantage why dosnt JBL use them in all there speakers?
Danged if I know -- but big companies don't tend to add components that incur extra (albeit minuscule) costs and/or complications unless engineering is able to persuade the corporate bean counters who sign off on product designs that there's some advantage to such a addition. I just have no idea what advantage that might be or if it's audible. BTW, I didn't cherry pick my examples -- I just happened to remember that I had a few on my hard drive.
 
Danged if I know -- but big companies don't tend to add components that incur extra (albeit minuscule) costs and/or complications unless engineering is able to persuade the corporate bean counters who sign off on product designs that there's some advantage to such a addition. I just have no idea what advantage that might be or if it's audible. BTW, I didn't cherry pick my examples -- I just happened to remember that I had a few on my hard drive.
By cherry pick I meant show a few that have it, the majority dont. And again, why dosnt everyone do it if it makes an improvement?
 
OK, AI content follows -- it asserts that the issue is the relatively high ESR and ESL of electrolytics and that the practice "is a very common practice in cost-effective yet high-quality speaker designs.":
_____

The reason for wiring a large electrolytic capacitor in parallel with a smaller film capacitor in a loudspeaker crossover is to optimize performance across the entire audio frequency spectrum by combining the strengths of both capacitor types.

Here is the breakdown of why this specific pairing is used:

1. The Electrolytic Capacitor (The "Bulk" Storage)

  • Role: Provides the high capacitance needed for low-frequency filtering.
  • Why: To create a crossover point at low frequencies (e.g., for a woofer), you need a large capacitance value (often hundreds of microfarads). Electrolytic capacitors are the only practical choice here because they offer high capacitance in a small, affordable package.
  • Weakness: Electrolytics have high Equivalent Series Inductance (ESL) and higher internal resistance (ESR). At high frequencies, their internal inductance causes them to lose effectiveness or even resonate, behaving like an inductor rather than a capacitor.
2. The Film Capacitor (The "High-Frequency" Cleaner)

  • Role: Handles the high frequencies that the electrolytic struggles with.
  • Why: Film capacitors (polypropylene, polyester, etc.) have extremely low ESL and low ESR. They remain stable and accurate at high frequencies where electrolytics fail.
  • The Problem: They are physically large and prohibitively expensive to manufacture in the high capacitance values required for low-frequency crossovers.
3. The Combined Effect (Parallel Operation) When placed in parallel:

  • Low Frequencies: The large electrolytic does the heavy lifting, providing the necessary reactance to block low frequencies from tweeters or pass them to woofers.
  • High Frequencies: As frequency rises, the impedance of the electrolytic's internal inductance increases, making it ineffective. The smaller film capacitor, with its low inductance, takes over, ensuring the crossover circuit maintains its intended frequency response and phase characteristics in the high-frequency range.
Summary of Benefits:

  • Cost Efficiency: You avoid buying a massive, expensive film capacitor by using a cheap electrolytic for the bulk of the value.
  • Performance: You avoid the poor high-frequency response and distortion that would occur if you used only an electrolytic.
  • Stability: It prevents the "self-resonance" of the electrolytic from causing peaks or dips in the speaker's frequency response.
In short, the electrolytic handles the power and low-end, while the film capacitor ensures clean, accurate high-end performance. This is a very common practice in cost-effective yet high-quality speaker designs.
 
OK, AI content follows -- it asserts that the issue is the relatively high ESR and ESL of electrolytics and that the practice "is a very common practice in cost-effective yet high-quality speaker designs.":
_____

The reason for wiring a large electrolytic capacitor in parallel with a smaller film capacitor in a loudspeaker crossover is to optimize performance across the entire audio frequency spectrum by combining the strengths of both capacitor types.

Here is the breakdown of why this specific pairing is used:

1. The Electrolytic Capacitor (The "Bulk" Storage)

  • Role: Provides the high capacitance needed for low-frequency filtering.
  • Why: To create a crossover point at low frequencies (e.g., for a woofer), you need a large capacitance value (often hundreds of microfarads). Electrolytic capacitors are the only practical choice here because they offer high capacitance in a small, affordable package.
  • Weakness: Electrolytics have high Equivalent Series Inductance (ESL) and higher internal resistance (ESR). At high frequencies, their internal inductance causes them to lose effectiveness or even resonate, behaving like an inductor rather than a capacitor.
2. The Film Capacitor (The "High-Frequency" Cleaner)

  • Role: Handles the high frequencies that the electrolytic struggles with.
  • Why: Film capacitors (polypropylene, polyester, etc.) have extremely low ESL and low ESR. They remain stable and accurate at high frequencies where electrolytics fail.
  • The Problem: They are physically large and prohibitively expensive to manufacture in the high capacitance values required for low-frequency crossovers.
3. The Combined Effect (Parallel Operation) When placed in parallel:

  • Low Frequencies: The large electrolytic does the heavy lifting, providing the necessary reactance to block low frequencies from tweeters or pass them to woofers.
  • High Frequencies: As frequency rises, the impedance of the electrolytic's internal inductance increases, making it ineffective. The smaller film capacitor, with its low inductance, takes over, ensuring the crossover circuit maintains its intended frequency response and phase characteristics in the high-frequency range.
Summary of Benefits:

  • Cost Efficiency: You avoid buying a massive, expensive film capacitor by using a cheap electrolytic for the bulk of the value.
  • Performance: You avoid the poor high-frequency response and distortion that would occur if you used only an electrolytic.
  • Stability: It prevents the "self-resonance" of the electrolytic from causing peaks or dips in the speaker's frequency response.
In short, the electrolytic handles the power and low-end, while the film capacitor ensures clean, accurate high-end performance. This is a very common practice in cost-effective yet high-quality speaker designs.
A silly AI answer based on the wrong information.
This is the main problem for AI as it tends to generate answers the one asking wants to hear.
And lots of nonsense combined with some actual science is combined to create a 'very nice' looking answer people want to hear based on wrong info on many websites.


The paralleling of caps with very different values only works for decoupling capacitors at RF frequencies.
Because it works there some folks also used it for coupling caps where it also works but only at RF frequencies but has no influence at audible frequencies.
Of course that came with the usual 'audiophile' findings and then people started doing it for those reasons.

The irony is even that for RF this only really does something in electronics when it is done closely to the power supply pins of the (very fast) circuit itself.

For power supply caps in SMPS it can reduce HF currents in reservoir caps when they are on their way out making them 'live' a little longer.

It does not do anything for coupling caps and in case of crossover parts it could be used as a way to fine tune the filter frequency because caps are not available in just any value but only in standard values and have tolerances as well.
In this case when one requires/wants to can parallel a smaller value to a larger one but this won't be the same value and it won't be a 10nF across every cap.

Using a 10nF in parallel to a larger value (some even use 100nF) as a local decoupling cap is common practice in circuits switching at RF frequencies or 'analog' circuits that might oscillate at such frequencies.
That's the only case where this works.... and, perhaps, in some feedback loops in very fast amplifier circuits.

So yes, the practice is common and based on actual science and does work well .... but NOT for coupling caps in the audio range NOR in passive XO's for speakers.
The fact that some manufacturers do this is no evidence the 'trick' works here too. In fact science says it cannot even work in this scenario (see post #21).
 
This is the main problem for AI as it tends to generate answers the one asking wants to hear.
Actually, it just scrapes the Internet for a consensus -- and the vast majority of Internet explanations are from folks who don't know the science and are repeating hearsay. IOW, it has less to do with "the one asking" and more to do with whatever the majority of the online mob believes. That's why I treat AI as a glorified search engine rather than an authority.
 
Can I make a plea that nobody on here ever quotes anything using an AI unless they know that the answer is correct. Just because an AI writes a well-written answer like the one above, it doesn't mean that it's in any way correct.

The more that sort of thing goes on, the more AIs will continue to get it wrong, as the answer above will now go into the training material for the next one. One day, they'll do it to something that really matters...

S.
 
Can I make a plea that nobody on here ever quotes anything using an AI unless they know that the answer is correct. Just because an AI writes a well-written answer like the one above, it doesn't mean that it's in any way correct.

The more that sort of thing goes on, the more AIs will continue to get it wrong, as the answer above will now go into the training material for the next one. One day, they'll do it to something that really matters...

S.
Too many times I've had an AI make statements that seemed very convincing; however, when I researched them were completely attributed to a single reddit post.
 
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