AD/DA "Audiophile" Question

[Ponyboy]

Hi Everyone,

I'm a music maker. I've been making electronic music for over 20 years. My first priority was usually musical instruments, outboard FX, audio interfaces and powered monitors. Over the years I've focused more on investing in gear that is used to listen to music rather than make it.

I have a general question after I watched a few review videos of an RME ADI-2 DAC FS which I just bought). One of these videos said that the ADI-2 wasn't quite as good as another DAC. He lost me when he started talking about interconnects and measuring sine waves. But it got me thinking again about a fundamental question that has popped into my head now and again.

Considering that the AD/DA devices that have made the music, and mastered the music, could very well have been RME, Lynx, Apogee, Metric, how can anyone claim that a consumer DAC can somehow resolve things above and beyond what was printed through the AD/DA mastering stage? I can understand that a DAC could be revealing less than a source, but if pro audio, and the music makers have used RME, how could another DAC be somehow better?

I use this guy sometimes to master my music. There's a Weiss DS1, EQ1, RME, and other top shelf pro audio gear. If you mastered through an RME UCX, then bought the RME ADI-2 Pro FS R BE and claimed the DAC is better - that may be true, but you're not going to hear anything above and beyond what the (inferior) mastering DAC did... nor are you going to hear much between top tier consumer DACs, or am I missing something?

Isn't the "best" DAC, the flattest with no audible distortion? To claim this DAC or that DAC is better, as a listener, seems to be nothing but subjective preference. Can you get flatter than a straight line? Apparently so..

Video is here

 

[YSDR]

"Audiophile" best is often a different thing than objectively best. "Audiophile best" means what the audiophile person likes the most or believes in. For example, if someone likes XY distortion (even if he doesn't know about it), then the best device to him is that which produces that type of distortion. The "problem" comes if an audiophile claims objectively that what he likes the most is the best device. All this IMO.

 

[Zensō]

I too am an electronic musician. I’m relatively new to the “audiophile” world and was initially confused by some of the claims put forth by audiophiles. I’ve come to realize much of what is bantered about is irrational, and that a fairly high percentage of audiophiles are not interested in objective reality, but only their subjective beliefs. Truthfully, I find it quite tiring. I’m thankful for this forum, which is an island in a sea of misinformation.

 

[pozz]

Hi Everyone,

I'm a music maker. I've been making electronic music for over 20 years. My first priority was usually musical instruments, outboard FX, audio interfaces and powered monitors. Over the years I've focused more on investing in gear that is used to listen to music rather than make it.

I have a general question after I watched a few review videos of an RME ADI-2 DAC FS which I just bought). One of these videos said that the ADI-2 wasn't quite as good as another DAC. He lost me when he started talking about interconnects and measuring sine waves. But it got me thinking again about a fundamental question that has popped into my head now and again.

Considering that the AD/DA devices that have made the music, and mastered the music, could very well have been RME, Lynx, Apogee, Metric, how can anyone claim that a consumer DAC can somehow resolve things above and beyond what was printed through the AD/DA mastering stage? I can understand that a DAC could be revealing less than a source, but if pro audio, and the music makers have used RME, how could another DAC be somehow better?

I use this guy sometimes to master my music. There's a Weiss DS1, EQ1, RME, and other top shelf pro audio gear. If you mastered through an RME UCX, then bought the RME ADI-2 Pro FS R BE and claimed the DAC is better - that may be true, but you're not going to hear anything above and beyond what the (inferior) mastering DAC did... nor are you going to hear much between top tier consumer DACs, or am I missing something?

Isn't the "best" DAC, the flattest with no audible distortion? To claim this DAC or that DAC is better, as a listener, seems to be nothing but subjective preference. Can you get flatter than a straight line? Apparently so..

View attachment 84839

Video is here

I too am an electronic musician. I’m relatively new to the “audiophile” world and was initially confused by some of the claims put forth by audiophiles. I’ve come to realize much of what is bantered about is irrational, and that a fairly high percentage of audiophiles are not interested in objective reality, but only their subjective beliefs. Truthfully, I find it quite tiring. I’m thankful for this forum, which is an island in a sea of misinformation.

If you guys don't mind, what are your artist names?

 

[Zensō]

If you guys don't mind, what are your artist names?

https://zenso.bandcamp.com/

https://soundcloud.com/zenso-music

 

[YSDR]

I am an electronic music fan since I know my mind.
A friend of mine whom I call audiophile are likes electronic music too, he wanted a specific sound for her listening room, he bought good large speaker which sounded very good and I think that was he wanted too, but he replaced those speakers because it was not a big audiophile brand, he then bought an audiophole brand speakers and the sound became as worse as it get, not joking, but he is now happy with her audiophile branded speakers. Every person that I meet and heard those new speakers agree on that, it's awful.
Cheers!

 

[pozz]

I am an electronic music fan since I know my mind.
A friend of mine who I call audiophile are likes electronic music too, he wanted a specific sound for her listening room, he bought good large speaker which sounded very good and I think that was he wanted too, but he replaced those speakers because it was not a big audiophile brand, he then bought an audiophole brand speakers and the sound became as worse as it get, not joking, but he is now happy with her audiophile branded speakers. Every person that I meet and heard those new speakers agree on that, it's awful.
Cheers!

What were the speaker brands?

 

[BDWoody]

you're not going to hear anything above and beyond what the (inferior) mastering DAC did... nor are you going to hear much between top tier consumer DACs, or am I missing something?

Nope, not missing a thing. Welcome to the forum!

 

[Colonel Bogey]

Video is here

This guy doesn't understand the basics of audio technology. "the challenge for a DAC is not just re-creating an up to 20kHz sine wave. It's about the things that happen faster than 20k times per second and thats the textural, timbreal cues within the music itself" Sigh....

 

[sergeauckland]

This guy doesn't understand the basics of audio technology. "the challenge for a DAC is not just re-creating an up to 20kHz sine wave. It's about the things that happen faster than 20k times per second and thats the textural, timbreal cues within the music itself" Sigh....

Why are people allowed to talk about things they know nothing about...........

S.

 

[YSDR]

Why are people allowed to talk about things they know nothing about...........

S.

It's called freedom of speech.

 

[Robin L]

Back when I was a recording engineer I got a t.c. electronics M2000, a single rack space digital Swiss Army Knife. A/D, D/A and plenty of great sounding reverb effects, eq, multiple effects. Digital was in a state of rapid development 25 years ago. I had access to lots of high-end gear to audition and worked with other audio engineers who had invested a great deal into their playback systems. Jack Vad recommended I get the t.c. electronics gear, said it was the best on the market at the time. And it was, the a/d side was better than the built-in a/d for the Technics DAT machines I was using. The d/a was the real sleeper. This was one of the first hi-bit [in this case, 20 bit] capable d/a's I heard back then and the difference was audible. I took that M2000 to audio shops to compare to more expensive equipment. There was an audio shop in Berkeley where a gentleman who worked for Atlantic records in the sixties was employed. Plugged the M2000 into a megabuck [$8000] CD player that had its own DAC but also had a coaxial out for the transport half. The M2000 had an easily noticed improvement in sound, specifically in the bass. I never saw that guy again. I wonder if he decided to go back to producing.

I'll bet the Topping E30 I'm listening through is as much better relative to the M2000. Right now, there's a very good chance that the difference between an excellent DAC of low cost and an excellent DAC of high cost will be inaudible.

 

[Zensō]

This guy doesn't understand the basics of audio technology. "the challenge for a DAC is not just re-creating an up to 20kHz sine wave. It's about the things that happen faster than 20k times per second and thats the textural, timbreal cues within the music itself" Sigh....

Being a successful audiophile reviewer on YouTube doesn’t require much technical knowledge. Much more important is a good camera presence and the ability to throw around familiar audiophile terms in a convincing manner.

 

[Mnyb]

It’s not usually about liking certain kind of distortion for these audiophiles, it’s all in their head with sighted listening.
The real differences that do exist is usually far far beyond human abilities to hear it . So the product“test” are often between products that sounds exactly the same to a human listener

There are of course good reason for you to have excellent technology in your studio, the gremlins adds up somewhere so if every piece of the puzzle is better than needed , why not .

Bandcamp is where I actually buy music these days , so I should sample some of your work .

 

[Vasr]

Isn't the "best" DAC, the flattest with no audible distortion? To claim this DAC or that DAC is better, as a listener, seems to be nothing but subjective preference. Can you get flatter than a straight line? Apparently so..

This point is not just applicable to subjective listening "audiophiles". It is also applicable to objective measuring "measurophiles" (yes, I just made up that term for equal opportunity stereotyping) that express preference for one DAC over another (based on numbers, say for example SINAD, rather than features) when both of them are well beyond the capabilities of the system used to produce the audio and the aural differences between them imperceptible. So, yes, there can be degrees of flatness in a straight line even when objectively measured.

Just different types of belief systems.

 

[watchnerd]

Just different types of belief systems.

Some will argue that better measurements below the level of audibility are indicators of engineering quality, but I think that's just rationalization for measurbating.

 

[Colonel Bogey]

This point is not just applicable to subjective listening "audiophiles". It is also applicable to objective measuring "measurophiles" (yes, I just made up that term for equal opportunity stereotyping) that express preference for one DAC over another (based on numbers, say for example SINAD, rather than features) when both of them are well beyond the capabilities of the system used to produce the audio and the aural differences between them imperceptible. So, yes, there can be degrees of flatness in a straight line even when objectively measured.

Just different types of belief systems.

And then there are just rational folks, going for something that is good enough (with a reasonable margin) measurement-wise and then choose based on features and perceived build quality.
Thats how I believe (or rationalise) I ended up with the RME ADI-2, same as OP's DAC.

 

[watchnerd]

Thats how I believe (or rationalise) I ended up with the RME ADI-2, same as OP's DAC.

I have the same.

Although it's a love/hate relationship.

 

[Ponyboy]

Thanks for all the comments and for validating that I'm not too crazy. The pro-audio and hi-fi world feels quite different, as there always seemed to be this disconnect between what we are utilizing on the production side, vs what some of the hi-fi products claimed to be resolving. There are times when I purposefully use "worse" gear for effect (printing drums to a Tascam 234 Syncaset for example, or going through an old Ramsa mixer then back in through the Rosetta).

I won't plug myself as I'm a terrible salesman, but you can check out the label(s) here. Bandcamp streams should be available for most.

www.endemikmusic.com
https://store.hellola-hellola.com/

I've been following this board for a while, and appreciate the matter-of-fact approach to gear. Not having to sort through the rudeness of other forums is a treat. Would love to see the testing expanded to include more pro audio stuff. It's tiresome to hear the marketing of the latest and greatest audio interface. RTL, noise, distortion, clocks and conversion are of great interest on the production side.

 

[Zensō]

This point is not just applicable to subjective listening "audiophiles". It is also applicable to objective measuring "measurophiles" (yes, I just made up that term for equal opportunity stereotyping) that express preference for one DAC over another (based on numbers, say for example SINAD, rather than features) when both of them are well beyond the capabilities of the system used to produce the audio and the aural differences between them imperceptible. So, yes, there can be degrees of flatness in a straight line even when objectively measured.

Just different types of belief systems.

I have to admit to being tempted by the “the higher the SINAD the better” trap. Clearly, the top 25-30% performers all sound identical, or close enough to be indistinguishable in actual use. I’ve considered replacing my JDS Labs Element II with an RME Adi-2 DAC FS, mostly because of the higher performance (inaudible as it is) and the German engineering, for which I’m a sucker. I have no real use for the other features it provides. The good news is that the rational part of my brain so far has kept me from wasting the money.