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Active Speakers for New Listening Room

regan

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These are the 2023 model, greatly improved.
With the money left you can buy yourself one (or two) svs sb3000, a minidsp flex with dirac live + bass control and boom - you got yourself one of the best sounding systems.

And with the money left you can buy a car. Or 4000 strawberry cupcakes.
 
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robithinker

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I will second this opinion - until you have heard cardioid speakers, don't buy anything. My Kiis are way better than my excellent-sounding Genelecs (which are way better than my B&W 805s were) and I have come to the conclusion that cardioid speakers are the only way to go for home listening (as opposed to pros who are able to spend a lot on room treatment). You will be amazed to hear how much of what you have been hearing, even from hi-end stuff, is due to room effects, ie. coloration. Cardioid speakers are a true paradigm shift. I am saying this from 50 years of audiophile know-it-all-ism and many hours of listening to tons of stuff of all types. Hopefully, cardioids will get less expensive as people hear what their recordings truly sound like.
Which Kiis do you have? The Kii 3s are 12-13k a pair. Any other cardioid monitors in the 7-8k price range?
 

Waxx

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These are new tech and all very pricy, the prices start arround 12k€ but go up way higher. So with your budget it's not really an option i think. And the Kii's in your space will need the BXT extention, that brings the price to about 35K (all in), the small tops alone are only fit for close listening (because the bass distort fast when playing loud).

Within your budget, i would go for a pair of Neumann KH120 II (900€) with a pair of Neumann KH750 subs (1500€) and a MiniDSP Flex (balanced) with DIRAC (total arround 1000€) to do the crossover and use room correction and as DAC (digital in, analog out). That still leaves some room for a streamer but will be the best you can get for your budget i think. The KH120 is on the small side, but with the subs it should fill the room enough to work right and would be a better choice (more neutral) than what you thought to buy.

A KH420 (wihout sub) or KH310 (as tops with a sub like the KH750) would be better off course, but then you need to raise your budget. Idem with the big Genelec's or cardiod speakers that are fit for your room like the Kii Tree BXT.

Edit: I used € as i live in Belgium, but the € and the swiss frank are almost 1 on 1 on value, so those prices should be the same for you, certainly when you buy in the EU (which should be no problem in Swiss, that is out the EU but got a free trade agreement with it. I did buy quiet a few things for a friend that lives in Zurich from EU webshops and no customs fees were charged or so.
 

Purité Audio

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The OP wouldn’t need the BLT ( I know it is really BXT) his room is an extremely similar size to mine.
Cardioid does make the in-room measurements much tidier.
Secondhand Kii or D&D8c perhaps?
With the 8Cs you wouldn’t even need a streamer.
Keith
 

Waxx

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This review says different, and it's also different in my experience using them in a studio as studio monitor. The Kii start to distort in the bass section on medium volume without the BXT extention:


And a 40m² room with high ceiling (3.2m) like the OP has, will need more than the Kii alone can give on low distortion. That's why the BXT extention is needed, it raises the bass capacity of the speaker. With the BXT it's a very capable speaker, also for big spaces, but the price is far out of the budget of the OP.

And good luck finding those speakers second hand, they are to rare and new to find them, and the one second hand Kii I saw was still sold for 10K and I never saw an D&D second hand sales.
 

Purité Audio

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No it doesn’t because the Kiis have a built in limiter, and they are three way.
Keith
 

LTig

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Mainly price. My budget is CHF 7-8k which needs to cover monitors, sub (if necessary), and streamer. [..]

So it seems I would either need to go with a different Genelec/Neumann, or a different brand, hence my looking at the Adam Audio, where I would be able to get the S3Vs with a sub and a streamer for about the same price as the 8361s/KH420s. Genelec subs are quite expensive compared to other brands. I'm trying to find one that is respected but which can also fill a 120m3 living room/dining area/kitchen open floor plan.
I use a pair of (old) K&H O300D and a Genelec 7060b sub in a 50 sqm room, which is comparable to the Neumann KH310 (successor of O300D) and KH750dsp. It can play louder than my ears can handle at 3.8 m distance.

Just some totally subjective impressions some 10 years ago: I once listened to the Adam S3V in our local pro shop and compared it with Neumann KH120 and Genelec 8030. It sounded much too bright and I thought it might have been broken or misadjusted. I have had similar impressions with other Adams monitors before.
 
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robithinker

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Edit: I used € as i live in Belgium, but the € and the swiss frank are almost 1 on 1 on value, so those prices should be the same for you, certainly when you buy in the EU (which should be no problem in Swiss, that is out the EU but got a free trade agreement with it. I did buy quiet a few things for a friend that lives in Zurich from EU webshops and no customs fees were charged or so.
That’s right.
Just some totally subjective impressions some 10 years ago: I once listened to the Adam S3V in our local pro shop and compared it with Neumann KH120 and Genelec 8030. It sounded much too bright and I thought it might have been broken or misadjusted. I have had similar imoressions with other Adams monitors before.
If it was 10 years ago, it was likely the old tweeter? I read that they redesigned it a few years ago for the S series (or maybe just redesigned it period, can't remember) and the new version is supposedly better integrated and improved over the old one. This is generally one of my other challenges, many of the Genelec/Adam/Neumann dealers do not seem to have demo rooms, so testing them is proving difficult.
 

Waxx

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That’s right.

If it was 10 years ago, it was likely the old tweeter? I read that they redesigned it a few years ago for the S series and the new version is supposedly better integrated and improved over the old one. This is generally one of my other challenges, many of the Genelec/Adam/Neumann dealers do not seem to have demo rooms, so testing them is proving difficult.
That is because they are ment for studio's originally and those typically lent a pair from their dealers (with a bail) to test in the studio. For hifi they won't do that as there is no company behind it that they can sue when things go wrong. A company is more likely also to be correct in returning the device in good shape in tiem than an individual. And demo rooms actually tell litle about how it will sound in your room.
 

HarmonicTHD

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These are new tech and all very pricy, the prices start arround 12k€ but go up way higher. So with your budget it's not really an option i think. And the Kii's in your space will need the BXT extention, that brings the price to about 35K (all in), the small tops alone are only fit for close listening (because the bass distort fast when playing loud).

Within your budget, i would go for a pair of Neumann KH120 II (900€) with a pair of Neumann KH750 subs (1500€) and a MiniDSP Flex (balanced) with DIRAC (total arround 1000€) to do the crossover and use room correction and as DAC (digital in, analog out). That still leaves some room for a streamer but will be the best you can get for your budget i think. The KH120 is on the small side, but with the subs it should fill the room enough to work right and would be a better choice (more neutral) than what you thought to buy.

A KH420 (wihout sub) or KH310 (as tops with a sub like the KH750) would be better off course, but then you need to raise your budget. Idem with the big Genelec's or cardiod speakers that are fit for your room like the Kii Tree BXT.

Edit: I used € as i live in Belgium, but the € and the swiss frank are almost 1 on 1 on value, so those prices should be the same for you, certainly when you buy in the EU (which should be no problem in Swiss, that is out the EU but got a free trade agreement with it. I did buy quiet a few things for a friend that lives in Zurich from EU webshops and no customs fees were charged or so.
Why spent 1000 bucks on a MiniDSP when DSP is already built into the KH120ii, 150 and 750? The room correction system from Neumann is only about 220 and sometimes you get a bundled deal.

At OP (@robithinker) Neumann are indeed a good (equal) alternative to Genelec unless you are fixed on Genelec. And Thomann ships into CH including a 30day return policy (so in case you don’t like it) and with 7.7% VAT. Maybe worth checking out. That is where I bought my office KH80/750/MA1. All the Neumann speaker have been reviewed here and measure excellently.

Thread 'Neumann KH 150 Monitor Review'
https://audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/neumann-kh-150-monitor-review.39922/

Edit. Thomann has the KH150 incl the MA1 for ca 3050CHF plus the sub KH750 for 1800 CHF. Would be an excellent system with money to spare or get a second KH750 and you are still in your budget.

 
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AudioJester

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What about the Dutch and Dutch 8c studio?
Significantly cheaper than the 8c, same sound, and streamers are easy/cheap to come by
 

Waxx

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What about the Dutch and Dutch 8c studio?
Significantly cheaper than the 8c, same sound, and streamers are easy/cheap to come by
It's still 13K, so about 5K above the budget of the OP: https://kmraudio.de/dutch-dutch-8c-studio/
Why spent 1000 bucks on a MiniDSP when DSP is already built into the KH120ii, 150 and 750? The room correction system from Neumann is only about 220 and sometimes you get a bundled deal.

At OP (@robithinker) Neumann are indeed a good (equal) alternative to Genelec unless you are fixed on Genelec. And Thomann ships into CH including a 30day return policy (so in case you don’t like it) and with 7.7% VAT. Maybe worth checking out. That is where I bought my office KH80/750/MA1. All the Neumann speaker have been reviewed here and measure excellently.

Thread 'Neumann KH 150 Monitor Review'
https://audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/neumann-kh-150-monitor-review.39922/

Edit. Thomann has the KH150 incl the MA1 for ca 3050CHF plus the sub KH750 for 1800 CHF. Would be an excellent system with money to spare or get a second KH750 and you are still in your budget.

I don't know about that room correction system, never heared anything about it of reviews and i know quiet a few who use a minidsp with DIRAC with their Neumann speakers. But if it's good, it's certainly an option. Do you have any good tests about that that you can link? It would be cheaper, that is true.
 

roffe

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I am moving soon to a new house and will have a new listening room that requires me to change to shorter speakers. The room is about 40m2 and has 3.2m high ceilings. There will be no acoustic treatment and I am looking to move from my current passive speaker setup (Focal Aria 948 and Onkyo receiver) to a set of active speakers. Below are what I am looking at. Listening position will be about 3 meters or so, but this room is an open-floor plan kitchen/dining area/living room, so I would like to have a large enough sound stage for when we have guests not sitting at the listening position. I want active streaming capabilities for Hi-Res (with LAN cable) from AirPlay 2 mostly, but will add a turntable at some point as well. I live in Switzerland so some brands are more difficult to source/test than others. Budget is around 5k (USD or CHF doesn't matter).

1. JBL 4329p - not out here in Switzerland yet, but looks interesting - price 4500/pair
2. Buchardt A500 Signature - price 4900/pair (not many left and i would have to order in the next few days)
3. Genelec 8351 - (6700/pair) - or maybe if I save a while 8361 (8800/pair) - yes these are different price class, but everyone is raving about them, on this site and others
4. Cabasse The Pearl - 6600/pair
5. B&W Formation Duo - 5000/pair

Lastly the cheaper variant
6. Klipsch The Nines - 2000/pair - please don't come at me about the Klipsch :). I am aware of the audiophile criticisms of horn loaded speakers (especially Klipsch), but i have a soft spot for them. My dad, who is now in his early 80's was a hi-fi enthusiast (within our families fairly limited means) and in the late 80's we were able to score some Forte II's for extremely cheap due to a damaged woofer which we had replaced. This set the bar for me for a long time on audio quality :) These seem to offer quite a lot of bang for your buck given the price.

My primary concern is the room, with hardwood floors (maybe a area rug) and tall ceilings. Room correction software would be helpful.

Any suggestions or ideas other than what I have listed?
Why are you not considering the Kef LS60?
 

HarmonicTHD

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It's still 13K, so about 5K above the budget of the OP: https://kmraudio.de/dutch-dutch-8c-studio/

I don't know about that room correction system, never heared anything about it of reviews and i know quiet a few who use a minidsp with DIRAC with their Neumann speakers. But if it's good, it's certainly an option. Do you have any good tests about that that you can link? It would be cheaper, that is true.
Plenty here including frequency sweeps before and after including the pros and cons plus you avoid going through an digital analogue conversion twice if you would to use the MiniDSP as the Neumanns have a DSP already built in so why not use it For room correction. btw you can feed the sub the signal in digital AES directly.

 
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robithinker

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Why are you not considering the Kef LS60?
Height mainly. I want to eventually put my speakers on a main wall with a window, but have the tops of them be at or very near to 90cm high where the window sill sill begins. The LS60s are great speakers though from what i have read.

Here is what I am dealing with. I have one small wall where i could put larger speakers and a TV, but the window opens inwards and my current floor standers would get in the way. My plan is to eventually buy a TV lift and put it on the left wall so that it can be lowered to underneath the window sill level. Speakers eventually over there as well.

Floor plan.jpg
 

Waxx

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Plenty here including frequency sweeps before and after including the pros and cons plus you avoid going through an digital analogue conversion twice if you would to use the MiniDSP as the Neumanns have a DSP already built in so why not use it For room correction. btw you can feed the sub the signal in digital AES directly.

But it's limited to one sub (at least the version i know), and very limited compared to DIRAC and the posibilities of a MiniDSP i have to say. If they would upgrade that system to the possiblities of a MiniDSP it would be a no brainer, but for most hifi setups the people that i know think it's not fit. That's why people spend money on an extra MiniDSP Flex and DIRAC licence.
 
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robithinker

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There are three online stores that offer the KH420s for 3500-3600/monitor, which puts them within budget, although it is difficult to tell whether that includes the DIM 1 module or not. I wouldn't even need a sub, at least not right away. Is the DIM 1 really necessary?
 

Purité Audio

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Height mainly. I want to eventually put my speakers on a main wall with a window, but have the tops of them be at or very near to 90cm high where the window sill sill begins. The LS60s are great speakers though from what i have read.

Here is what I am dealing with. I have one small wall where i could put larger speakers and a TV, but the window opens inwards and my current floor standers would get in the way. My plan is to eventually buy a TV lift and put it on the left wall so that it can be lowered to underneath the window sill level. Speakers eventually over there as well.

View attachment 284835
The Kefs maybe a little tall although seated ear height is often around 1 metre, but a, they sound terrific and b, the whole family can use because they play everything and they are so simple to use.
Your phone and a pair of wireless Kefs and that’s it.
Keith.
 
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robithinker

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Your phone and a pair of wireless Kefs and that’s it.
:) Hard to argue with that logic, at least for my wife and kids. I will look at them again and reconsider whether they work. Right now the KH420, or even the KH310s with two KH 750s are looking pretty attractive.
 

Waxx

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The LS60 is certainly a speaker that should be measured by someone with a Kippel. Kef in general is very good, but i never saw measurments of these. So i don't know how good these are, certainly compared to speaker of Neumann and Genelec or cardioid speakers. But going on the experiences with other Kef (old and new), it should be at least decent.
 
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