Active Speakers dilemma

[Arindal]

there are many enthusiastic male hi-fi/high-end enthusiasts whose knowledge of acoustics is unfortunately often at the level of a 15-year-old.

You mean those thinking that a ´continuously increasing, smooth directivity index´ is preferrable, as long as you can draw a straight line into the graph.

Me thinks, this is a pretty common belief among active speaker enthusiasts and self-proclaimed audio objectivists alike. To me, it is indicative of a massive lack of understanding room acoustics and having actual experience with setting up speakers and microphones.

Don't people understand that a microphone records the echoes in a room just as a speaker produces sound?

Most rooms don't produce echoes in the original meaning of the word, due to restricted IDT and dominant earlier reflections. But I would rather ask myself why people who propagate speaker characteristics mentioned above, are not understanding that imbalanced directivity index inevitably leads to tonally colored reflections, indirect soundfield and perceived reverb?

If more people were to understand such basics, we would not repeatedly hear about Neumann, Genelec or KEF recommendations for home conditions...

 

[thewas]

If some people think they can hear non-pathological group delay at such low frequencies it is easy to make an FIR filter to compensate it by delaying appropriately the rest, which though for many monitoring usages would add an unacceptably high latency, which is the reason that companies with great experience in engineering (engineering means finding the best compromise for a given group of targets) like Genelec avoid doing so.

 

[AudioJester]

If more people were to understand such basics, we would not repeatedly hear about Neumann, Genelec or KEF recommendations for home conditions...

What do you recommend then?

 

[Arindal]

What do you recommend then?

Any speaker that would keep the directivity as constant as possible, at least in the bands which contribute most to reverb tonality and ambience (which is roughly 500...7,000Hz). With rather compact nearfield speakers, as wider dispersion is acceptable, this is not as complicated to design.

for many monitoring usages would add an unacceptably high latency, which is the reason that companies with great experience in engineering (engineering means finding the best compromise for a given group of targets) like Genelec avoid doing so.

For playback monitoring (including gaming, no live on-stage application), my guess would be that latency in the region of 20ms is acceptable (half a frame duration of a movie). That leaves a lot of reserves to correct inherent group delay, at least for closed-box designs.

Having sufficient DSP capabilities and not correcting such, can be either interpreted as the issue not being taken seriously, or the GD distortion by design exceeding the potential correction window. With some bass reflex designs, my guess would be the latter is at play, but I have never heard such a concept which would deliver satisfyingly tight and precise lower bass.

 

[Cosineswelle]

Without music, life would be a mistake as Niche said

Did you mean Nietzsche?
Anyway, subwoofer(s) are always a good idea to add

 

[thewas]

With rather compact nearfield speakers, as wider dispersion is acceptable, this is not as complicated to design.

With some bass reflex designs, my guess would be the latter is at play, but I have never heard such a concept which would deliver satisfyingly tight and precise lower bass.

So which compact closed baffle monitors available in the market concretely would you recommend?

 

[Arindal]

So which compact closed baffle monitors available in the market concretely would you recommend?

Very much depends on the application in question, i.e. listening distance, SPL, desired bass extension and room. When it comes to bass quality without the need for crazy SPL, I found some rather compact models by MEG, D&D and KSD to be pretty satisfying, with the latter two offering excellently low group delay distortion although they are not closed-box designs but digitally aligned.

The predecessor to Neumann 310 named K+H O198 was also a pretty good nearfield monitor with surprisingly tight bass, but not as loud and it is discontinued.

 

[thewas]

with the latter two offering excellently low group delay distortion although they are not closed-box designs but digitally aligned.

Yes, so BR is not the problem when implemented well and even more when corrected with FIR as I had written above.

 

[Arindal]

so BR is not the problem when implemented well and even more when corrected with FIR as I had written above.

I agree, BR in general is not always a problem, when properly tuned or FIR corrected. Never said that. I was more referring to a specific BR system with a broad band of group delay distortion, plus some weird pressure chamber behavior introducing compression and audibly long decay.

 

[Kyle_PL]

It is 25ms of total latency, not group delay!

... thats what I said!!

Group delay distortion @100Hz roughly around 2ms which is absolutely fine for a vented system.

But You have 25ms TOTAL LAG what I was talking about - and this is problem!

 

[Joaquinín]

Interestengly, the just revealed Genelec 8380 seems to have around 2.5 ms GD at 100 hz. A noticeable reduction over the 7.5 ms in the 8381? But just about the same as the 8351B...

 

[Arindal]

ou have 25ms TOTAL LAG what I was talking about - and this is problem!

Why?

 

[Kyle_PL]

Why?

If You're mastering sounds for games, and You have this +25ms LAG problem on Audio ... this is problem (bigger the lag, bigger problem). Lower LAG = better.

 

[Arindal]

If You're mastering sounds for games, and You have this +25ms LAG problem on Audio ... this is problem

I agree, that is a very specific case where latency might matter (same with live on-stage monitoring for musicians). Have no experience with mixing or mastering for games, but if you don't actually react to what's happening on the screen, a total latency of 25ms is not dramatic, and could easily be corrected by lip sync, i.e. delaying the video as well.