Active Speakers dilemma

[kimmosto]

So they have expensive speakers

For example 8381 is three times more expensive than Aalto 9 having generally available components. So your messages continue the same narrow minded BS as always. Go to the trash yourself with your holy Genelecs.

 

[Behrelec 37]

There is no such thing as sacred material; everyone competes on the basis of expertise. Genelec makes rock-solid professional audio equipment and provides maintenance services, as well as all the instructions on how to get the most out of the product for its customers. glm updates add new features and multi-channel capabilities that can be digitally chained. And room correction comes as standard.

This Aalto speaker is far too small a hot dog stand to compete with other hot dog stands. At least for now. We'll have to make do with that for now.

 

[DSJR]

For example 8381 is three times more expensive than Aalto 9 having generally available components. So your messages continue the same narrow minded BS as always. Go to the trash yourself with your holy Genelecs.

Sorry to butt in here, but much as I grumble these days about prices of a lot of audio gear especially speakers, a company needs to finance itself in terms of future product development as well as keeping itself afloat and pay employees wages on a day to day basis. I suspect we've been spoiled by cheaper far eastern production, bringing us some excellent products from source to speakers at very attractive prices, this making EU made products rather exposed price-wise. The Aalto models do look good, but seriously, for an unknown (outside of a dedicated small fan-base currently) range to get serious recognition, they'll need serious third party testing.

 

[kimmosto]

This Aalto speaker is far too small a hot dog stand to compete with other hot dog stands. At least for now.

That's also BS. Owner of those 9s' went to shop for buying 8381s, but 9 were much better so the deal was quite obvious. Religion to brand did not matter. Just sound.
Financing and marketing are the main problems in a shrinking market. Part of the problem is people like you trying to prevent all new companies from entering the market by systematically underestimating them and endlessly praising own well-known brand. Thanks for that - again.

 

[Kyle_PL]

Aalto 9, Taipuu Kero L. Both have FIR linear phase XO. Excess GD is easier to get close to 0 ms, but natural roll off at LF increases normal GD already at 100 Hz. Especially with reflex designs.

Do You have any links to some measurements? (group delay, ... and other)

 

[kharan]

Aalto 9, Taipuu Kero L. Both have FIR linear phase XO. Excess GD is easier to get close to 0 ms, but natural roll off at LF increases normal GD already at 100 Hz. Especially with reflex designs.
View attachment 479289

I think we'd all be grateful if you could recommend designs and products other than yours.

 

[kimmosto]

Do You have any links to some measurements? (group delay, ... and other)

Existing Aalto models are in spinorama. Unfortunately data is limited to frequency domain due to reviewers who don't want to deliver adequate information.

 

[kimmosto]

I think we'd all be grateful if you could recommend designs and products other than yours.

That is almost impossible - again due to reviewers who don't measure, publish or share adequate...any data in time domain. Sorry if my earlier messages look like recommending. That was not my purpose. P.S. I don't have connections to commercial manufacturers anymore so all manufactures are equal.

 

[dfuller]

For example 8381 is three times more expensive than Aalto 9 having generally available components

I mean, last time I checked, Genelec was making almost all of the drivers in that speaker themselves.

Beyond that, let's note that the 8381 having 8ms GD at 100hz is not pathological. Generally my rule of thumb is if the GD is less than one period long, it probably isn't audible. And, doing some very simple math, 100hz has a period of 10ms. 10 > 8.

Also - you can reduce group delay! It's just going to incur a massive latency penalty for LF. Maybe that doesn't matter for domestic playback, but in studios, latency matters.

 

[kharan]

That is almost impossible - again due to reviewers who don't measure, publish or share adequate...any data in time domain. Sorry if my earlier messages look like recommending. That was not my purpose. P.S. I don't have connections to commercial manufacturers anymore so all manufactures are equal.

So that you are aware, Erin's Audio Corner has been providing group delay data for a little while now, it's on his website.

 

[Arindal]

Smooth GroupDelay is more important ... and Genelec have it pretty smooth.

There is absolutely no indication ´smooth group delay distortion´, whatever that is, is preferred. In contrary, the audibility threshold of group delay distortion is expected to be lowest when several components of a transient event, which oftentimes are represented by a row of frequencies multiplied from the fundamental one, are shifted in time one against the other.

show examples of products, with GroupDelay 1ms @ 100Hz.

KSD Linemaster

K+H/Neumann O500

Error is perceivable both in tonality and dynamics (as weak and lame sound) though it's officially just linear distortion.

Agreed, and we should also take decay into account. Excessive group delay distortion in lower frequency regions oftentimes come with very long ringing or resonance, for example when caused by a Helmholtz resonator, which contributes to the subjective impression you have correctly described.

 

[kimmosto]

Beyond that, let's note that the 8381 having 8ms GD at 100hz is not pathological. Generally my rule of thumb is if the GD is less than one period long, it probably isn't audible. And, doing some very simple math, 100hz has a period of 10ms. 10 > 8.

8 ms is way too much. Duration of pressure drop with wide range transient equals to ca. group delay at LF. For example with 8 ms group delay, pressure RMS of wide range transient is reduced for ca. 8 ms. Effects (weakness, reduced punch, tonaly change to thin and bright) are easily audible also with headphones which are kinda incompetent for detecting pressure differences.

Also - you can reduce group delay! It's just going to incur a massive latency penalty for LF. Maybe that doesn't matter for domestic playback, but in studios, latency matters.

Linear phase XO at 200 Hz does not cause much latency. Lack of taps can be compensated with some IIR EQ. LF including natural high pass of the radiator should be minimum-phase anyway so that does not require any extra taps.

 

[Suono]

this is how it is

 

[kimmosto]

So that you are aware, Erin's Audio Corner has been providing group delay data for a little while now, it's on his website.

Yes, but he (either) does not share phase or impulse response as a file which would open highway for much deeper analyses in time domain. That is very sad.

 

[Flyman]

sorry for bothering you guys...

genelec or neumann ?

 

[dfuller]

sorry for bothering you guys...

genelec or neumann ?

They're both excellent. Genelecs trend a little brighter in room sans EQ, at least for the two ways.

 

[Kyle_PL]

View attachment 479332

Green plot of this Neumann looks nice, but there is 25ms lag @ 100 Hz?

Genelec posted by @kimmosto have 13ms "LAG" @100Hz

 

[RickS]

Hi! Folks!

Please stay on topic and avoid personal attacks.

 

[Arindal]

Green plot of this Neumann looks nice, but there is 25ms lag @ 100 Hz?

It is 25ms of total latency, not group delay! Group delay distortion @100Hz roughly around 2ms which is absolutely fine for a vented system. Please note this is in ´minimum phase bass mode´! If you switch it to fully linear phase mode, nearly all group delay distortion down to 40Hz is eliminated, at the cost of tripling overall latency. All frequencies literally are delayed, waiting for the ´slowest part´ of the reflex port.

I posted the link to KSD master as a similar concept yet completely avoiding group delay in the bass region. Overall system latency is in the region of 3ms. Cannot get any better.

 

[Behrelec 37]

It goes like this. Most people don't understand that the square footage of the listening room determines what kind of speaker is optimal and best in terms of maximum size/practicality. Most people also forget the affordable benefits of acoustics, and far too many consider it too difficult to implement or even crazy, i.e., unnecessary, or else the acoustic elements play too small a role on the walls of the room or are even in the wrong places in the form of floor stands.


You could even say that the acoustics of your room double the enjoyment you get from sound reproduction. Your room is ALWAYS part of your sound reproduction, whether you understand it or not. You cannot ignore this fact. YouTube is growing and expanding enormously among audio enthusiasts, and there are many enthusiastic male hi-fi/high-end enthusiasts whose knowledge of acoustics is unfortunately often at the level of a 15-year-old. Even bearded adult old men constantly make the same mistake.
Many of them show off their new stereo equipment, especially their speakers, as if they were in a bathroom or a mummy's stone cave, in almost every video. Don't people understand that a microphone records the echoes in a room just as a speaker produces sound?