Active Speakers dilemma

[Flyman]

Hello guys.

I am an old fashioned type of listener. I had the Harbeths once upon a time married with vtl, Hegel etc. I moved on to a smaller house so the game over.haha.

That is my little story!!! So for now I was thinking for some active speakers. who can leave without music?! Without music, life would be a mistake as Niche said. I don't really have experience since I never live with active speakers. I heard some like genelec, dynaudio (I think the 7's).

Generally I see two teams. the one that is with genelec, Neumann and the others that want more warm natural taste like Adam, Dynaudio, focal.

I would like to go with focal but the focal can't control the low's so well, as I know. never heard active focal speaker.
Adam a4v have front ports that creates some cancelation, as I know. I never listened them.
Dynaudio lyd5 have some deeps and also the hiss...but I think depends of the gain?! as I know. I have listened them but nothing wow.
I was listened some neumann and I find them perfect but boring, as I remember. I prefer the taste of dynaudio.
Genelec I don't have any idea, I think will be like the Neumann.

So guys..let me know your knowledge, your experience, your opinion.

ps: I prefer small speaker(4inch or 5inch) in order later to buy a subwoofer. Maybe is better to take a 7inch speaker?!
As I measured the triangle sweet spot and speakers are about 80-90cm. I liked the more warm sound...but as I understand is something different from the sound of hifi. I think the closer to my taste is dynaudio...but I am scared of the too many negative posts.
Also for dac I think id24 will be just ok?!

thanx in advance. I hope to have a nice conversation.

 

[staticV3]

Generally I see two teams. the one that is with genelec, Neumann and the others that want more warm natural taste like Adam, Dynaudio, focal.

This is not based on fact.

Most Adam speakers have boosted treble, the opposite of warm:
https://www.spinorama.org/?brand=Adam

Dynaudio isn't warm, more like neutral but with worse directivity control:
https://www.spinorama.org/?brand=Dynaudio&power=active

And Focal is all over the place:
https://www.spinorama.org/?brand=Focal&power=active

So guys..let me know your knowledge, your experience, your opinion.

I know that many people are very happy with their 8030C for home HiFi listening.

 

[Arindal]

My advice: take the room acoustics into consideration, and listen to the speakers in question in exactly the position and room they are meant for. Some of the models you have mentioned (Focal and Dynaudio foremost) might not really go well with a reverberant and ´bright-sounding´ room, while particularly the Neumanns and KEFs (and some Genelecs) will most probably sound dull and boring in a room with overdamped treble.

As I measured the triangle sweet spot and speakers are about 80-90cm.

You mean the listening distance, i.e. distance between one speaker and the listener is just 80cm? In this case, I would walk away from any non-coaxial design, particularly those with waveguides.

 

[kyuu]

You mean the listening distance, i.e. distance between one speaker and the listener is just 80cm? In this case, I would walk away from any non-coaxial design, particularly those with waveguides.

80-90cm is a pretty normal distance for near-field speakers, particularly a desk setup, it seems to me. The notion that only a coaxial design can work at that distance does not seem to be supportable.

OP: What's your budget and space requirements? Depending on the speaker you get, a DAC may not be necessary depending on your sources. Speaking of, what will be your sources for this setup?

Also, as staticV3 already stated, popular notions of how speakers sound are often completely wrong. Subjective evaluations by random reviewers are unreliable, at best. Evidence shows that neutral speakers are preferred by the vast majority of listeners. This also makes sense once you think about it: the people making the content are generally seeking to make it sound as good as possible, so why would random changes to the frequency response make content better? And in any case, if you do prefer a different sound, you can do much better by using EQ or tone controls to taste rather than trying to find a speaker with random deviations from neutral that happen to suit you.

 

[DVDdoug]

Most active speakers are intended to be "monitors" for audio production* (as opposed to reproduction). That does NOT necessarily mean they sound different but they are sold into a different marked, typically sold where they sell pro audio equipment and musical instruments. They also tend to have a more "functional" appearance with no grills to protect the drivers. There are lots of small "monitors" sold for people with bedroom studios and they aren't used as main monitors in pro studios.

Receivers and AVRs always have speaker outputs, but not all have "preamp outputs" for use with active speakers. Passive speakers are still "standard" for home audio. I'm NOT saying you have to go with the crowd... Lots of enthusiasts and "audiophiles" have active speakers.

It would be best if you can listen before buying. Even better if you can "audition" them at home because acoustics do make a difference. If you have a lot of experience and knowledge the measurements might be useful and comparable measurements (like you find in the reviews here) can help you compare, if you know what you're comparing too...

Generally I see two teams. the one that is with genelec, Neumann and the others that want more warm natural taste like Adam, Dynaudio, focal.

By "warm", I assume you mean a mid-bass boost and possibly some slight high-frequency roll off? That's what it used to mean to me but some people say "warm" for slight "pleasing" distortion. So now, try to avoid the word... Sometimes I'll say "dull" or "bright" but I try to remember to explain what I mean.

To me "natural" means neutral or accurate and that's what we usually want from a speaker (or active monitor)... To accurately reproduce the sound. If you want something different it's usually best to use tone controls or EQ.

Adam a4v have front ports that creates some cancelation, as I know. I never listened them.

Ports shouldn't cancel until you are well-below the cutoff frequency. This post shows the generalized difference between sealed and ported speakers. The ported speaker goes lower but then drops-off with a steeper slope (as the direct sound and the sound from the port cancel). But that is a generalization. There are lots of trade-offs, compromises, and design decisions and you can make a good speaker either way.

The curves cross so at the lowest frequencies the sealed speaker can put-out more sound and with DSP or analog EQ and enough amplifier power, the sealed design can put-out more deep bass. A LOT subwoofers are made that way... Sealed in "small" cabinets with EQ to extend the bass.

Because of the long wavelengths (100Hz has a wavelength of 10-feet) so it doesn't matter if the port is in the front or back as long as you don't put a rear-ported speaker too close to the wall and block the port. Often with a small speaker, it's on the back because there's no room on the front.

I was listened some neumann and I find them perfect but boring.

That's probably OK... Maybe a good thing. The MUSIC should be exciting when played accurately. And of course you can use EQ/tone controls to adjust a good-accurate speaker to your taste.

ps: I prefer small speaker(4inch or 5inch) in order later to buy a subwoofer. Maybe is better to take a 7inch speaker?!

I'm an old-school big-speaker guy. I feel like 8-inches is the minimum. But size isn't everything and it's not fair to generalize. A subwoofer will help in any case. Even with an 8-inch woofer you (probably) aren't going to get "realistic" bass you can feel in your body.

Note that it can be tricky to incorporate a subwoofer if you don't have an AVR (or a crossover, or something with a subwoofer output). If you don't have an AVR, look for an active sub with a built-in crossover and line-level pass-through so you can high-pass the signal to your main amplifier or active speakers.



* That's ignoring cheap active "computer speakers" and subwoofers which are normally active/powered to work with audio-video receivers which have speaker outputs for the main & surround channels but only a line-level output for the sub.

 

[Arindal]

80-90cm is a pretty normal distance for near-field speakers, particularly a desk setup, it seems to me. The notion that only a coaxial design can work at that distance does not seem to be supportable.

Not saying that solely a coaxial can work, but from afar it is almost impossible to judge which in-line (non-coaxial) speaker would.

A significant number of active 2-way monitors are marketed as ´nearfield monitors´, when they are actually not. That is particularly the case with those concepts combining a bigger midwoofer (6.5") with a waveguide-loaded tweeter.

 

[caught gesture]

Get the speakers that measure the most neutral and then eq them to taste.

 

[Arindal]

Get the speakers that measure the most neutral and then eq them to taste.

The most neutral on-axis or off-axis, room averaged, vertically or horizontally? The moment these four are not proportional to each other, any EQ is futile as it will result in tonal imbalance of another fraction of the soundfield.

For extreme nearfield applications, the averaged directivity index and horizontal behavior are not as important. Linear on-axis behavior is a good starting point, I agree, but this one alone can in most cases be equalized. Which leaves the vertical behavior as the #1 factor, that is exactly why I recommended to stick to coaxial speaker designs (or similar ones with midrange/tweeter being close together).

Many midrange monitors marketed as nearfield, show remarkably problematic vertical off-axis behavior, which can easily be identified in the ´ceiling bounce´ and ´floor bounce´ calculations, as well as FR graphs under vertical angles 20+deg.

 

[respice finem]

Get the speakers that measure the most neutral and then eq them to taste.

Exactly. This way you can have neutral, warm, cool, or whatever.
Optimally for non-pros, with semi-automatic EQ.

@Flyman Assuming you're not on a budget, and the living room is the listening room, I would recommend the Genelec SAM series, despite having Neumann myself (but not in the living room).

Smart Active Monitor (SAM™) Systems - Genelec.com

Networked Smart Active Monitor (SAM™) Systems feature automatic calibration to the environment.

www.genelec.com

 

[skankhobag]

I would suggest you check out this review at Erin’s Audio Corner (Ascilab_C6B)

AsciLab C6B Review

AsciLab C6B Review

www.erinsaudiocorner.com

It’s probably the best passive speaker for the money that meets your criteria.

If you’re looking for active speakers, I’d suggest two to look into:

iLoud Precision MTM MKII​

iLoud Precision MKII

iLoud Precision - Handcrafted, digitally controlled studio monitors

www.ikmultimedia.com

Fully active with DSP room correction.

KEF LS50 Wireless II

KEF LS50 PAIR Wireless II Active Wireless 2-Way Mini Monitor Speakers Black

KEF Recertified Product

www.accessories4less.com

Refurbished with full warranty for $1000 off the $3K MSRP.

 

[JohnnyNG]

I'm an old-school big-speaker guy. I feel like 8-inches is the minimum. But size isn't everything and it's not fair to generalize. A subwoofer will help in any case. Even with an 8-inch woofer you (probably) aren't going to get "realistic" bass you can feel in your body.

Still, in general that 8" woofer is going to work much better at and below an 80Hz crossover at medium to loud volumes than a 4inch or 5inch "woofer".

 

[Kyle_PL]

I prefer small speaker(4inch or 5inch) in order later to buy a subwoofer. Maybe is better to take a 7inch speaker?!
As I measured the triangle sweet spot and speakers are about 80-90cm.

For nearfield (90cm), classic speaker (non coax), should be smaller (than 7-8" woofer). Genelec said:

When too close to the monitor, the
drivers - tweeter or midrange/tweeter
- are not summing together properly at
the crossover point, which affects the
perceived frequency response balance.

- bigger the speaker (classic non coax) = You should be further.

For 90cm small 5 inch speaker is optimal.

ps. subwoofer - bigger subwoofer woofer is better

 

[Arindal]

It’s probably the best passive speaker for the money that meets your criteria.

Have never listened to one, but just from technical and measurement point, this model bears a significant risk of not being nearfield-compatible hence leading to the flaws I have described (particularly in terms of lobing, localizable distance between woofer and tweeter, excessive directivity index in the treble region and alike. Not saying it is a bad speaker, but for sure not a nearfield one.

 

[andrew]

Have never listened to one, but just from technical and measurement point, this model bears a significant risk of not being nearfield-compatible hence leading to the flaws I have described (particularly in terms of lobing, localizable distance between woofer and tweeter, excessive directivity index in the treble region and alike. Not saying it is a bad speaker, but for sure not a nearfield one.

Any specific recommendations for these nearfield setups? Other than space , is there a reason to go for a small coaxial over a large coaxial (eg MoFi SkurcePoint 10)?

 

[Dave54321]

Go neutral
Genelec or Neumann
then EQ to what you like
better to EQ to preference than to correct for inherent deficiencies

 

[Flyman]

wow. thanx guys for the really fast replies. thank you very much each reply is important for me.

My advice: take the room acoustics into consideration, and listen to the speakers in question in exactly the position and room they are meant for. Some of the models you have mentioned (Focal and Dynaudio foremost) might not really go well with a reverberant and ´bright-sounding´ room, while particularly the Neumanns and KEFs (and some Genelecs) will most probably sound dull and boring in a room with overdamped treble.



You mean the listening distance, i.e. distance between one speaker and the listener is just 80cm? In this case, I would walk away from any non-coaxial design, particularly those with waveguides.

I know that are you talking about...but isn't always the room but the 'energy' that the speaker have. either two speaker of different companies measure the same doesn't listened the same. that's for sure.

80-90cm is a pretty normal distance for near-field speakers, particularly a desk setup, it seems to me. The notion that only a coaxial design can work at that distance does not seem to be supportable.

OP: What's your budget and space requirements? Depending on the speaker you get, a DAC may not be necessary depending on your sources. Speaking of, what will be your sources for this setup?

Also, as staticV3 already stated, popular notions of how speakers sound are often completely wrong. Subjective evaluations by random reviewers are unreliable, at best. Evidence shows that neutral speakers are preferred by the vast majority of listeners. This also makes sense once you think about it: the people making the content are generally seeking to make it sound as good as possible, so why would random changes to the frequency response make content better? And in any case, if you do prefer a different sound, you can do much better by using EQ or tone controls to taste rather than trying to find a speaker with random deviations from neutral that happen to suit you.

eq does change the sound. You can't make the Adam to play the same with genelec,neumann or dynaudio just changing the eq. that is a myth. either the headroom isn't the same. so ?!
My budget is up to 1500euro. Dac I will go for id24?! maybe.


DVDdoug some audiophile have active speaker but it's a day with night comparing to studio speakers.
-mid-bass boost and possibly some slight high-frequency roll off? Exactly!!!!


so Genelec and neumann are your taste guys?!

 

[Arindal]

Genelec and neumann are your taste guys?!

I would personally advise against the 2-way models particularly of these two manufacturers, when it comes to true nearfield. The smaller models don't offer the dynamic reserves or bass capabilities, the bigger ones have localizable sources midwoofer and tweeter pretty far from each other, directivity is increasing and lobing is pronounced. Some 3-way concept are fine (very much liked the Genelec 8341A), but they exceed the budget limit. Unfortunately same is true to other models which come to my mind meeting the requirements.

 

[respice finem]

For nearfield (90cm), classic speaker (non coax), should be smaller (than 7-8" woofer). Genelec said:

- bigger the speaker (classic non coax) = You should be further.

For 90cm small 5 inch speaker is optimal.

ps. subwoofer - bigger subwoofer woofer is better

This is actually important - different rooms and listening distances will determine the right choice.
There is no "one size fits all" solution.
That said, a smaller stereo triangle will probably be helpful in any living room.

 

[kemmler3D]

I will just say, as an anecdote but nothing definitive, the Genelec 8030s were nice and warm sounding relative to what I expected to hear based on all the commentary online, even having seen the measurements and not (knowingly) giving too much credence to the negative comments out there.

 

[Kyle_PL]

The smaller models don't offer the dynamic reserves or bass capabilities,

"Bass capabilities" can be done by subwoofer. With subwoofer, dynamic reserves whole system, will by higher too.