Active speakers as an answer?

[Sixte]

For quite a few members here, active speakers are not an alternative, they are the only way. Just a thought. Many of them have a bass shelf switch for close to the wall mounting. In an apartment you can't go to high volumes, and low bass draws complaints, so some of the smaller models are appropriate. Stick with the larger pro audio manufacturers like JBL, Adam, Neumann and Genelec in case you need repairs later. Some of the high end actives may be fed a digital signal so instead of a DAC a device which converts to their digital input format may be used.

Completely agree with the recommendation for smaller models. I will for sure be limited by my neighbours so not looking to go to extreme set ups.
Concerning your last remark, you mean like getting a digital version of the Neumann for instance or the Genelec smart serie which would make the job of the DAC converting the signal to analogue + correct the signal according to the room? Is this correct?
Thanks

Greg

 

[StefaanE]

Thanks for the explanation StefaanE. Indeed, I should have understood by the speakeker's name Adding a sub was not in my plan at all actually nor to add cables to connect a local network. That being said, I really want to adjust the response to my room otherwise why spend so much money on speakers... So, if I understand well, the "smart" active speakers from Genelec only need the GLM kit because they integrate RJ45 inputs and therefore can be calibrated directly? So, pricier than the Neumann but if you want all the DRC to be enabled, it's more or less the same cost. Tough call!

As far as I know, all the Genelec Smart speakers can be controlled using GLM, but you will have to run network cables to them, as like the Neumanns, they don’t have WiFi. I don’t know GLM, so I don’t know if you need the speakers permanently connected to the network (and you computer running GLM), or if the connection is only needed when you measure the room and load the parameters in the speaker’s DSPs. Someone using the system can hopefully chime in and explain how it works.

Looking at your floor plan, it seems to me you will have to run long cables from your HIFI to your speakers, so make sure your selected speakers have balanced inputs to avoid picking up noise.

 

[Ron Texas]

Completely agree with the recommendation for smaller models. I will for sure be limited by my neighbours so not looking to go to extreme set ups.
Concerning your last remark, you mean like getting a digital version of the Neumann for instance or the Genelec smart serie which would make the job of the DAC converting the signal to analogue + correct the signal according to the room? Is this correct?
Thanks

Greg

Yes, there are digital versions of many of the high end monitors. Sometimes room correction is built into the monitor. That's nice if you have more than one source of program.

Just remember there's more than one way to do it. However, if your wife likes the look of Genelec, that helps. If you are in Europe their prices are not as high as they are here. There's a lot of good stuff out there and even more expensive crap. Personal preference means a lot. KH310 probably kicks ass, but flops for living room decorative purposes. For disclosure purposes I have original LS50's, 2 Rythmic L12 subs, a Crown XLS 1502 and a Topping DX3 pro DAC. Rear ported anything will not work for you due to placement concerns.

 

[YSC]

I'd like to stay under €3500. I actually determined this budget based upon the cost of the KH310s. If I can get the same performance and manufacturing quality at a lower price, of course I'll be happy to pick something else for example at Genelec.

As far as DRC is concerned, I've no prior experience so the easiest way to get into it will be my preferred choice. If Neumann or Genelec propose something in standard that is both simple and convenient, I'll go that route.



Thanks for the kind welcome ;-)




I've looked at the Ones serie but it seems like pricing starts at €2000 per unit so that's already more money than I plan to spend on it. If you think about specific models in the Genelec range, please don't hesitate to give me the references, that would help a lot. For the KH310s, I did see about the grills, it both helps at securing the speakers and hiding the design which is not so great to my taste. With the grills, this will be a €4000 total, a lot of money for sure.



Sure, the WAF is as (more?) important to measure as the rest prior to any purchase I happened to buy a pair of Dynaudio gemini almost 20 years ago and eventually sold them because of my spouse never accepting their design and bulkiness. Concerning the Genelec, it's not so much that she enjoys the genelec as a first choice nut more that it's on the OK side for her. As far as I'm concerned, if it could look like the below one, I'd be more than happy with such finish. Isn't this pretty?

View attachment 103156View attachment 103156




Not plenty of budget but I'm willing to spend enough money to get a really well performing active speaker with the possibility to correct the room response. If I can get this at half the price of the KH310s, more than happy to do so. But, it doesn't seem so easy to get great speakers at very competitive prices as opposed to what you get for electronics today.

Just saying I personally dislike their raw series, the black is more good industrial looking h to an they seem in photo, it’s Matt grey/black style with tiny fine grains, kind of like canon dslr like if you know what I mean, and their recycled aluminium is patched with uneven colours so it might look too raw to me, especially I won’t want something shiny metallic when the lights are right. It’s more expensive in raw finish but you do some charity in the same time so is all up to u

speaking of models I would think of a pair of 8330 with a 7350 sub to make it full range with a glm kit which should be easy enough to setup

 

[Sprint]

I know several people who use white Genelecs approved by their spouse. I have the predecessor of the KH310 (K&H O300D, identical look) in our living room, my wife had JBL LSR2325 which were replaced by white Genelec 8020a.

I use Genelec white 8340 LCR and 8330 surrounds with 2 SVS subs. Use GLM to correct the monitors. I am very happy the way these sounds in my room. I will be adding a minidsp 2x4HD to correct subs. Not happy with YPAO for subwoofers from Yamaha AVR775.

some pics of my set up:

https://imgur.com/a/TaaZzir

 

[Sprint]

Yes, there are digital versions of many of the high end monitors. Sometimes room correction is built into the monitor. That's nice if you have more than one source of program.

Just remember there's more than one way to do it. However, if your wife likes the look of Genelec, that helps. If you are in Europe their prices are not as high as they are here. There's a lot of good stuff out there and even more expensive crap. Personal preference means a lot. KH310 probably kicks ass, but flops for living room decorative purposes. For disclosure purposes I have original LS50's, 2 Rythmic L12 subs, a Crown XLS 1502 and a Topping DX3 pro DAC. Rear ported anything will not work for you due to placement concerns.

@Ron Texas What is your listening distance with LS50?

 

[Sprint]

As far as I know, all the Genelec Smart speakers can be controlled using GLM, but you will have to run network cables to them, as like the Neumanns, they don’t have WiFi. I don’t know GLM, so I don’t know if you need the speakers permanently connected to the network (and you computer running GLM), or if the connection is only needed when you measure the room and load the parameters in the speaker’s DSPs. Someone using the system can hopefully chime in and explain how it works.

Looking at your floor plan, it seems to me you will have to run long cables from your HIFI to your speakers, so make sure your selected speakers have balanced inputs to avoid picking up noise.

In my case, I use GLM only for the speakers. One has to connect all the Genelec SAM monitors via RJ45 cable supplied with the speakers. One has to additionally buy the GLM hardware kit. I had to Daisy chain the RJ45 cable through all the 8340 and 8330 monitors and finally connect to the GLM hardware kit. Connect the USB from GLM kit to my Mac and then start the room measurements. The GLM hardware already identifies which speaker models are connected. I just had to drag the correct ones and position as LCR and surrounds. The measurement takes less than 5 minutes. After that, they are sent via cloud to Genelec where the room correction takes place and is presented within few minutes. If I am happy with the correction, I have to confirm and the GLM kit then stores the corrections in individual speakers. Disconnect the RJ45 and thats it. You are good to go. Run a nice dolby surround movie and voila, jaws will drop.

 

[StefaanE]

In my case, I use GLM only for the speakers. One has to connect all the Genelec SAM monitors via RJ45 cable supplied with the speakers. One has to additionally buy the GLM hardware kit. I had to Daisy chain the RJ45 cable through all the 8340 and 8330 monitors and finally connect to the GLM hardware kit. Connect the USB from GLM kit to my Mac and then start the room measurements. The GLM hardware already identifies which speaker models are connected. I just had to drag the correct ones and position as LCR and surrounds. The measurement takes less than 5 minutes. After that, they are sent via cloud to Genelec where the room correction takes place and is presented within few minutes. If I am happy with the correction, I have to confirm and the GLM kit then stores the corrections in individual speakers. Disconnect the RJ45 and thats it. You are good to go. Run a nice dolby surround movie and voila, jaws will drop.

Thanks for the explanation. It’s good to know one doesn’t need the network cables as a permanent fixture. I suppose the same applies to Neumann’s solution — once the measurements are complete, and the correction calculated, the parameters are stored in the DSPs. Makes sense.

 

[Ron Texas]

@Ron Texas What is your listening distance with LS50?

A little over 7' or 2.2 M.

 

[Sixte]

Looking at your floor plan, it seems to me you will have to run long cables from your HIFI to your speakers, so make sure your selected speakers have balanced inputs to avoid picking up noise.

The plan is not final and the hifi was put in a corner while it will probably be integrated in the bookshelf as well. I don't expect to have more than 2m long cable but in all cases this be connected in balanced with my Pionner U05s.

Just remember there's more than one way to do it. However, if your wife likes the look of Genelec, that helps. If you are in Europe their prices are not as high as they are here. There's a lot of good stuff out there and even more expensive crap. Personal preference means a lot. KH310 probably kicks ass, but flops for living room decorative purposes. For disclosure purposes I have original LS50's, 2 Rythmic L12 subs, a Crown XLS 1502 and a Topping DX3 pro DAC. Rear ported anything will not work for you due to placement concerns.

Well, I don't really know about the pricing difference between the US and Europe. I live in France and best prices for the first model in the smart series starts at €2000 per unit. If I need to add a sub plus the GLM kit, that's about €5,2K in total. No doubt this is aligned with the product performance and capabilities and excellent in comparison to overpriced hifi products but still a ot of money, so I better be sure of the choice and the compatibility with all my constraints. Concerning, the rear port, as someone explained already, Genelec have one so I have to rely on their statement it can be put as close as 5cm from the wall and still work great.

Just saying I personally dislike their raw series, the black is more good industrial looking h to an they seem in photo, it’s Matt grey/black style with tiny fine grains, kind of like canon dslr like if you know what I mean, and their recycled aluminium is patched with uneven colours so it might look too raw to me, especially I won’t want something shiny metallic when the lights are right. It’s more expensive in raw finish but you do some charity in the same time so is all up to u
speaking of models I would think of a pair of 8330 with a 7350 sub to make it full range with a glm kit which should be easy enough to setup

Matter of taste of course as always The biggest disavantage is also that the raw color isn't available for most of their speakers apart from the G serie which seems less advanced than the other smart serie we're discussing.

I use Genelec white 8340 LCR and 8330 surrounds with 2 SVS subs. Use GLM to correct the monitors. I am very happy the way these sounds in my room. I will be adding a minidsp 2x4HD to correct subs. Not happy with YPAO for subwoofers from Yamaha AVR775.

some pics of my set up:

https://imgur.com/a/TaaZzir

Really looks nice!

 

[Sprint]

Well, I don't really know about the pricing difference between the US and Europe. I live in France and best prices for the first model in the smart series starts at €2000 per unit. If I need to add a sub plus the GLM kit, that's about €5,2K in total. No doubt this is aligned with the product performance and capabilities and excellent in comparison to overpriced hifi products but still a ot of money, so I better be sure of the choice and the compatibility with all my constraints. Concerning, the rear port, as someone explained already, Genelec have one so I have to rely on their statement it can be put as close as 5cm from the wall and still work great.

Did you check with Thomann, Germany? Their pricing is pretty decent and I assume they ship it to France as well.

 

[Sixte]

Yes I did and as there is only a small price difference with shops in France, I prefer to buy locally, especially during this difficult period for many local businesses.

 

[Sprint]

Yes I did and as there is only a small price difference with shops in France, I prefer to buy locally, especially during this difficult period for many local businesses.

definitely agree and makes sense to support local shops. I did the same as well.

 

[StefaanE]

The plan is not final and the hifi was put in a corner while it will probably be integrated in the bookshelf as well. I don't expect to have more than 2m long cable but in all cases this be connected in balanced with my Pionner U05s.

The Pioneer is a DAC — you know that the speakers you‘re considering will convert the analogue signals from your DAC back to digital and use their own DACs to produce the actual sound, don’t you? Not that it matters sound-wise —all good DACs are sonically transparent— but there are solutions that keep the signal digital until the conversion in the speakers.
You could have a look at the A500 from Buchardt (€3750 for a bundle with the hub, which takes all kind of digital inputs and is a Roon endpoint), the X4000RC from Nubert with their AmpX used as wireless controller (about €2700), or Canton‘s Smart Vento 3 and Smart Connect 5.1 (€2800) which are all wireless and allow you to add a wireless subwoofer(s) if and when required. This way, you can position the sound sources where you want and avoid unneeded D to A and A to D conversions. In addition, using digital sources gets rid of the hiss a lot of analogue-only active speakers apparently suffer from.

 

[YSC]

The plan is not final and the hifi was put in a corner while it will probably be integrated in the bookshelf as well. I don't expect to have more than 2m long cable but in all cases this be connected in balanced with my Pionner U05s.



Well, I don't really know about the pricing difference between the US and Europe. I live in France and best prices for the first model in the smart series starts at €2000 per unit. If I need to add a sub plus the GLM kit, that's about €5,2K in total. No doubt this is aligned with the product performance and capabilities and excellent in comparison to overpriced hifi products but still a ot of money, so I better be sure of the choice and the compatibility with all my constraints. Concerning, the rear port, as someone explained already, Genelec have one so I have to rely on their statement it can be put as close as 5cm from the wall and still work great.



Matter of taste of course as always The biggest disavantage is also that the raw color isn't available for most of their speakers apart from the G serie which seems less advanced than the other smart serie we're discussing.


Really looks nice!

Check Thomann for their price is a lot lower, and for the smart Genelecs you can have the 83x0 series also, traditional two way with glm and dsp, only you may want to use the sub and make it 2.1 or so, the port is absolutely working great as I put my 8030 at around 6cm from the wall (5cm for nearer corner and 7.5cm for the far corner as I pointed them towards my listening position, measured by tape measure) and the bass is tight and sound

 

[Sixte]

The Pioneer is a DAC — you know that the speakers you‘re considering will convert the analogue signals from your DAC back to digital and use their own DACs to produce the actual sound, don’t you? Not that it matters sound-wise —all good DACs are sonically transparent— but there are solutions that keep the signal digital until the conversion in the speakers..

Hi StefaanE,

You're very right to point this out about the conversion. To be frank, coming from traditional hifi set ups, this is a whole new world to me (and a very promising one!). So I need to learn how it works as well as the different ways I can reach my objective. And choose the one most convenient, waf-friendly and less costly.

At this point in time, I understand I have 2 main possibilities :
-Using active speakers with integrated DSP with ideally a digital source upstream. Adding a sub is then optional --> Genelec
-Using active speakers without DSP + a sub integrating the DSP. I guess the same applies here i.e using a digital source upstream? --> Neumann or non smart speakers from Genelec

For what it's worth I checked my other DAC, a fostex HPA8C and it is equipped with digital outputs (optical & coaxial). I have to see how a solution like the Neumann sub works with teating the signal I guess...

 

[richard12511]

I'd either get the 8350A or the 8330A with a 7350A, then; both with the GLM kit, of course.
Keep in mind that Neumann requires you to buy both the MA-1 and the KH750DSP if you want to use DRC with the KH310.

You can get Dirac for about the same price as GLM 4, and it's a a better DRC(imo). I've just started playing around with Audiolense, and it's even better than Dirac(again, imo), and it's only $200 more. Also(if you live in the US), Rythmik, HSU, PSA, and SVS(to a little lesser extent) all make much better subwoofers(objectively) than the 7350A, for the same or lesser price. I own both 7350s and 7370s. They're great for their size and power, and they look cool with their spiral port design, but they're quite poor in terms of price/performance. I'm not sure about SVS overseas, but I'm guessing they sell to quite a few countries. I've also heard pretty good things about Arendal and KEF subs for outside of the US, but I have no first hand experience. I don't have first hand experience with Neumann subwoofers, but it seems they may be a bit better(price/performance) than Genelec.

IMO, the Neuman KH310 is gonna be hard to beat in terms of price/performance. Recently, I, with 2 other people, had a chance to compare my 8351b to a pair of KH310. The difference was pretty small. We all agreed that the 8351b were better, but it wasn't a huge difference, and I'm curious if the smaller "Ones" Genelecs could keep up in terms of bass performance.

I also own the 8030c, and they're excellent. Ignoring extension/spl, my 8030cs are probably 95% as good as my 8351b. I've never heard the 8330, 8350, 8050, but I'm assuming they're somewhere in between my 8030c and my 8351b. My current opinion is that the SAM enabled versions are not worth it, since there are better DRC solutions out there for similar price.

@Sixte , knowing what I know now, if I were in your position, I would go:

Genelec/Neumann for speakers
Rythmik(or JTR with a slightly higher budget) for subwoofers, or SVS outside the US(JTR also ships worldwide)
Audiolense for DSP(or Dirac Live with a tighter budget)

 

[StefaanE]

For what it's worth I checked my other DAC, a fostex HPA8C and it is equipped with digital outputs (optical & coaxial). I have to see how a solution like the Neumann sub works with teating the signal I guess...

If your primary source is digital (a computer or streamer, or a CD player with digital out), there is no need to go through a DAC unless your speakers (active or passive with a separate power amp) have analogue inputs only. I didn’t find a lot of information on the Fostex digital outputs, but I guess you use it as an external sound card for your PC. In this case, the digital outputs make sense, but I guess most people buying this type of gear want to use the DAC, which is not involved in the digital outputs.

Active speakers with just analogue inputs make sense when the source is analogue only, e.g. an AV processor or the pre-outs of an AV receiver (licensing restrictions obliging). In this case, the AVP/R will do the room correction anyway, and the speakers don’t need their own DSP (unless they use an active cross-over solution). In this case, they will need cables and hence influence the positioning of the AVP/R, especially when it doesn’t have balanced outputs. Compared to a passive solution, the need for both power and signal wires adds to the complexity.

The reason I suggested wireless solutions is because they remove the signal wires from the equation, and hence make it possible to position the primary source independently from the speakers. Of course, if you can position the primary source close to them, some smart speakers (like my Nuberts and I believe the Cantons), have a number of digital inputs, a remote control to select the source and adjust the volume, and can replace both the DAC and power amplifiers while allowing the slave channel and sub-woofers to be connected wirelessly (they’ll also serve as external sound card for your computer). Obviously, your spouse might prefer the “cute” Genelecs, but AFAIK, these will require both power and signal wires, and wired subwoofers if you decide to go that route. I’m not sure about the Cantons, but the Nuberts have room correction too (which in my experience does a reasonable job but is not comparable to Dirac, for sure).

I hugely enjoy my new digital/wireless setup, and am very happy to have gone beyond the traditional approach of a separate DAC/pre-amp, power amplifiers and passive speakers. Given that I have my computer in my basement office and my music equipment in my living room, I’m not really interested in PC-centric solutions.

Whatever solution you go for, I wish you many hours of listening pleasure.

 

[YSC]

You can get Dirac for about the same price as GLM 4, and it's a a better DRC(imo). I've just started playing around with Audiolense, and it's even better than Dirac(again, imo), and it's only $200 more. Also(if you live in the US), Rythmik, HSU, PSA, and SVS(to a little lesser extent) all make much better subwoofers(objectively) than the 7350A, for the same or lesser price. I own both 7350s and 7370s. They're great for their size and power, and they look cool with their spiral port design, but they're quite poor in terms of price/performance. I'm not sure about SVS overseas, but I'm guessing they sell to quite a few countries. I've also heard pretty good things about Arendal and KEF subs for outside of the US, but I have no first hand experience. I don't have first hand experience with Neumann subwoofers, but it seems they may be a bit better(price/performance) than Genelec.

IMO, the Neuman KH310 is gonna be hard to beat in terms of price/performance. Recently, I, with 2 other people, had a chance to compare my 8351b to a pair of KH310. The difference was pretty small. We all agreed that the 8351b were better, but it wasn't a huge difference, and I'm curious if the smaller "Ones" Genelecs could keep up in terms of bass performance.

I also own the 8030c, and they're excellent. Ignoring extension/spl, my 8030cs are probably 95% as good as my 8351b. I've never heard the 8330, 8350, 8050, but I'm assuming they're somewhere in between my 8030c and my 8351b. My current opinion is that the SAM enabled versions are not worth it, since there are better DRC solutions out there for similar price.

@Sixte , knowing what I know now, if I were in your position, I would go:

Genelec/Neumann for speakers
Rythmik(or JTR with a slightly higher budget) for subwoofers, or SVS outside the US(JTR also ships worldwide)
Audiolense for DSP(or Dirac Live with a tighter budget)

hijacking the thread a bit, how about if not using measurement and EQ at first, will using same brand non DSP sub with their own monitors having better FR balance than using SVS, Rythmik etc.? I suppose with 3rd party subs the sensitivity will be wildly different