I agree with you, but at the same time should we drive profits to a manufacturer that doesn't give us a complete / good product out of the box?
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Active Speaker Recommendations for USA (by @sweetchaos)
- Thread starter sweetchaos
- Start date
Destination: Moon
Senior Member
Not to belabor the point but do we know x clicks on each result in nearly identical output?
Destination: Moon
Senior Member
Lol, Shirley I messed up.... My apologies !
It would be easy to notice with the phantom center being, well, off-center. Pink noise is useful for stuff like this.
In any case the speakers don't have identical output (edit: or perceived sound) due to manufacturing tolerances and in-room location. But this applies to passive speakers too, of course.
Looking at the JBLs; within the price range quoted above [varies from where you're located] I'm nissing the JBL 306P MKII, which IMO reads / performs better than both the 305 and 308.
OP
- Thread Starter
- #46
@Ziltoe I double checked all of the price points, and saw a mistake for the 3rd place "Under US$450/pair" recommendation, where previously it was Pioneer DJ VM-50, it's now JBL 306P MKII. Reason was both have the same PS of 5.1, but JBL's have better LFX of 38, vs 48 for Pioneer's.
These JBL 30xP MKII series should be much cheaper than are currently.
The pricing was last increased in July and it's the highest it's ever been (looking at the history) since they were released.
For example, JBL 308p MKII is US$260/ea, but were US$135/ea back in Dec of 2019.
I'm reporting current prices, so it's fair. But if they drop in price, I'll update the tables.
These JBL 30xP MKII series should be much cheaper than are currently.
The pricing was last increased in July and it's the highest it's ever been (looking at the history) since they were released.
For example, JBL 308p MKII is US$260/ea, but were US$135/ea back in Dec of 2019.
I'm reporting current prices, so it's fair. But if they drop in price, I'll update the tables.
dasdoing
Major Contributor
is distorsion even a factor in preference score? some of the recomended speakers distort af
overall the preference score seams to be kind of outdated.
best indicator is that the T5V needs a special category in the list
Tom C
Major Contributor
Distortion is not a factor in preference score. The reasoning is that at typical listening levels in typical rooms, distortion is sufficiently low as to not be a factor in preferences.
I believe this to be true, and to be as true today as ever. However, I, for one, like to crank it up occasionally, and have yet to own a piece of gear where I haven’t reached its limits of clean output before I was fully satisfied with the volume.
I believe this to be true, and to be as true today as ever. However, I, for one, like to crank it up occasionally, and have yet to own a piece of gear where I haven’t reached its limits of clean output before I was fully satisfied with the volume.
dasdoing
Major Contributor
a speaker thats distorts ar 96dB peaks will have a pretty quiet limit. I mean, it is ok for chilled listening, but not for what I would call "emotional levels"
More Dynamics Please
Addicted to Fun and Learning
What I consider to be "emotional levels" are near live concert levels without getting into hearing damage territory. There's a reason why speaker comparisons need to be level-matched to avoid the louder one having an unfair preference rating advantage. Up to a reasonable point louder with minimal compression and distortion is better, though the exact sweet spot will vary from person to person and can also vary with the listener's mood.
OP
- Thread Starter
- #51
Improvements:
- Added amplifier column. Obviously, this is not an apples to apples comparison, but it's a step in the direction.
Problem: How do I classify power handling?
Possible solutions:
1. Look at amplifier specs on the manufacturer website.
Sure, they can say "50 watt amp for low frequency (woofer)" and "50 watt amp for high frequency (tweeter)". Does this mean Peak or RMS? Is this with 0.1% of 1% or 10% distortion? Some say, most don't.
Not an apples to apples comparison.
2. Look at max SPL, like what SoundAndRecording shows?
But that requires pushing the speakers to their limits, neither of which both Amir or Erin is willing to do. And I understand why.
But outside of soundandrecording, we have no way of classifying this information.
3. Erin is showing how loud a speaker is capable of playing, and whether the frequency response is changing as the result of that.
He calls it the "Response Linearity" test.
At least this is an easy way judge what the speaker is doing at a certain level of loudness.
Most speakers can handle 86db, and maybe 96db level, but some fall apart at 102db.
Good information to know, since it's better than nothing.
Since there's no universal way to express power handling, so how do I classify speakers then?
Does the amplifier column that i've created contribute to this understanding or can we come up with some kind of a metric for this?
Maybe grade speakers A+, A, B and such.
Hoping for some ideas on how to improve on this.
EDIT: Added links to Erin's "Response Linearity" Test, since it's the best metric we have.
- Added amplifier column. Obviously, this is not an apples to apples comparison, but it's a step in the direction.
Problem: How do I classify power handling?
Possible solutions:
1. Look at amplifier specs on the manufacturer website.
Sure, they can say "50 watt amp for low frequency (woofer)" and "50 watt amp for high frequency (tweeter)". Does this mean Peak or RMS? Is this with 0.1% of 1% or 10% distortion? Some say, most don't.
Not an apples to apples comparison.
2. Look at max SPL, like what SoundAndRecording shows?
But that requires pushing the speakers to their limits, neither of which both Amir or Erin is willing to do. And I understand why.
But outside of soundandrecording, we have no way of classifying this information.
He calls it the "Response Linearity" test.
At least this is an easy way judge what the speaker is doing at a certain level of loudness.
Most speakers can handle 86db, and maybe 96db level, but some fall apart at 102db.
Good information to know, since it's better than nothing.
Since there's no universal way to express power handling, so how do I classify speakers then?
Does the amplifier column that i've created contribute to this understanding or can we come up with some kind of a metric for this?
Maybe grade speakers A+, A, B and such.
Hoping for some ideas on how to improve on this.
EDIT: Added links to Erin's "Response Linearity" Test, since it's the best metric we have.
Last edited:
OP
- Thread Starter
- #53
Because Adam T5V were highly recommended by Amir, and thus remain a worthy pick.
Also, we have no current way of classifying power handling (as I wrote above), which is most often the differentiator as you go up in price points.
So while the frequency response and distortion handling are measured by both Amir and Erin, power handling is currently not classified.
In the case of Neumann KH 120A, we got community feedback about it's power handling limitations. But in the case of Adam T5V's, what is the point at which we (the community) can no longer recommend them? I don't know the answer to this question.
Passive speakers don't have this problem. So a $100 speaker can be worthy at $1000 price point, if the speaker was designed properly.
With active speakers, amplifier is always the limit. But I have no metric by which to classify power handling, so I end up showing all of Amir's "highly recommended" speakers (plus a few worthy picks like Kali IN-5/8v2, Kefs, etc) at higher price points. I don't know of a better way of doing this. Do you?
Lilith
Active Member
- Joined
- Mar 28, 2021
- Messages
- 267
- Likes
- 80
No, it is perfectly ok as it is. What I'm missing in general with all these reviews is an assasment of the the built quality.
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dasdoing
Major Contributor
well...loudness is limited by distorsion. we know that at least in the midrange 1% distorsion is a safe bet. a speaker staying under 1% at 96dB should be able to put some good loudness, no?
but then again most ported speakers seam to distort audibly in the bass range first. not sure how the audible limit is defined there
OP
- Thread Starter
- #56
Improvements:
- Added upcoming reviews
- Added upcoming reviews
Then I really wonder about 2 things:
1. What levels do you crank it up to
2. What gear have you tried
Tom C
Major Contributor
The best answer to question 1 would require me to have some kind of meter and report to you an SPL and which weighting was used. I don’t have that for you, I’m sorry. someday I’ll have to get around to measuring my systems.
A quick list of my current systems for question 2:
McIntosh MC275->Tannoy Definition DC10A. 60 tube watts per channel.
McIntosh MC275 -> Paradigm Persona 3F. Very clean and enjoyable.
Schiit Vidar -> Kef LS50. The original LS50. Actually quite good for a little bedroom setup.
JBL Eon 610 + Eon 618S. My most powerful system, used in a home gym. Rated at max 500 watts continuous for the upper cabinet, and 500W for the subwoofer cabinet. The upper cabinet is biamped, 350W to the woofer and 150W to the tweeter I think, so the output isn’t really 500W. ASR member DonH put together a little tutorial to show how it is that you can’t just add the numbers together. But still, pretty good level of output that will fill the room and mask a good deal of background noise. It’ll get much louder than I could possibly stand it, but it won’t sound clean when turned up that high. It’ll play very nice and clean at lower levels. If I turn it up until the sharpness of distortion starts to chew on my ears, I’m left wishing for just a bit higher output. Still, you get a lot for your money with these.
JBL 306P on my computer work desk
JBL 705P x 7 + Rythmik F18 in a home theater 7.1 system
I’d really like a pair of M2’s with the matching Crown amps, but they’re just so expensive. Surely those would satisfy about anybody.
lherrm
Active Member
Thanks for the great effort of listing.
Waiting for a <$30k category when/if the data is available some day, with Grimm LS1+Sub, Genelec 8351B + W371A.
Waiting for a <$30k category when/if the data is available some day, with Grimm LS1+Sub, Genelec 8351B + W371A.
Probably the only things I could see getting to such absurd volumes without severe distortion are like... Augspurger studio mains. Those things rely mostly on compression drivers and are flush mounted. They get absurdly loud.
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