Active Room Treatment (ART) by Dirac

[ThELiZ]

This is similar to what happened with me when I had my 7.2.4 setup. Certain groups were not selected to be support groups.

At first I just thought Dirac chose not to use them as it ‘maybe’ decided they weren’t helpful as a support group. But I doubt this is the case with your subwoofer.

It just so happened, though, that this group was my rear surrounds… The ones that weren’t active when I was playing content.

I’d be interested if you played some sub content with this setup and see if anything is happening with that sub.

Also, could you please do me a favour and check the ‘info’ button on the remote when you are playing content and see if it shows all channels as active? That would confirm if it’s just a ‘me’ thing where I can’t get my rear surrounds working.

As for your issue with your sub group… For reference, when I split one of my subwoofers out from the initial group, I was not able to select a curve for that subwoofer or select any speakers to support it… According to Dirac, this is normal. Confirmed by @slaweks post.

 

[Studio Dweller]

Curious if many of you are running full range with ART or using curtains to limit the correction? I'm greatly preferring the sound when limiting to ~250 Hz. Even when using a target curve that closely follows the measured response of my mains, it sounds like ART is tamping down the character of the speakers too much for my taste. That being said, I am extremely happy with how it's sounding, especially after adjusting support levels down a bit from the defaults.

 

[Dj7675]

Curious if many of you are running full range with ART or using curtains to limit the correction? I'm greatly preferring the sound when limiting to ~250 Hz. Even when using a target curve that closely follows the measured response of my mains, it sounds like ART is tamping down the character of the speakers too much for my taste. That being said, I am extremely happy with how it's sounding, especially after adjusting support levels down a bit from the defaults.

While I don’t have a system up right now, when I did, I continually had presents for limited and full range correction. I always returned to limited correction after comparing them. I know opinions and experiences differ on this which I am sure is speaker/room dependent. But there is absolutely nothing wrong with limiting correction with Dirac. Just create a couple of presets and listen to make your decision.

 

[slaweks]

This is what I want, I don't need more sub power, but I can't select Group 8 as support for Group 7 as you can see in my last screenshot. I did turn off the Group 7 support for itself and try again. Still think it's weird that it's possible to select support for the same group, i.e. 7 support for 7.

I just exported both a Bass Control and ART filter (using the same measurement data) into my 3800 and both seem off in different ways. When I listen to 2 channel material in stereo the ART filter has weird, peaky/hollow mid bass that goes away when listening to the same track with Dolby on. The Bass Control filter is better in this respect but neither are as good as my previous Bass Control filter.

I'm going to remeasure tomorrow (9 measurements, as before) and see if things fall into place. I've been using Bass Control with Dirac Live since it came out and have had good success with it before this last measurement. I'm hoping this will also fix the Group 8 issue.

I must say I did not try to follow the advice yet, I will let you know when I do it.

 

[Wikedlok]

I’m sure it’s user error, but I’ve no idea what I’ve done wrong.

I have an x3800 and it is working fine with all speakers active. Did you perhaps choose some sound mode which ommits rears?

 

[Studio Dweller]

While I don’t have a system up right now, when I did, I continually had presents for limited and full range correction. I always returned to limited correction after comparing them. I know opinions and experiences differ on this which I am sure is speaker/room dependent. But there is absolutely nothing wrong with limiting correction with Dirac. Just create a couple of presets and listen to make your decision.

That's what I've been doing and limited range has continued to be my preference. Just curious what others experiences have been.

 

[Wikedlok]

Right now ART is focused on the bass and mid-bass/high-bass regions...

In localisation terms - the cinema configurations all localise the main subs at the screen - so in a theoretical sense, front subs make sense.

On the other hand, there are two sides to the bass - first there is the bass in each of the channels - which are localised anywhere in the 360 degree 3D space... all channels are full range - all channels have bass - and that bass is in fact localised in all channels (including height!!!)

Then there is the LFE channel - which although in theatre specs located at the screen (literally behind the screen) - appears to have become a non localised bass effects channel.

Given the frequent use of a non localised LFE paradigm (going against theatre spec!) - it makes sense to attempt a non localisable "all around" bass envelopment... this can use subs all around, or leverage the non localisable nature of lower bass to achieve the effect.

The issues with non localisable bass is primarily that it is limited to sub 60Hz (roughly) and above that, the sub tends to be localisable to various degrees. Possibly due to harmonics - THD - of the main signal - keeping in mind that the 2nd harmonic of 60Hz is 120Hz - and well within the localisable frequencies, and that many subs have quite substantial THD - well above what is acceptable for main speakers.... so the localisability may well be the THD!
This may indicate benefits to be gained from low distortion subs...

We tend to wrap up all the bass from all the channels, and discuss "bass management" - but in a perfect world we want more bass capable speakers in their respective places (base layer and height speakers), so localisation of bass becomes a distinct bonus rather than a negative! - and perhaps the LFE should be defined as a FRONT Sub Bass channel - same as in theater specifications?

While this sound reasonable, in my experience, using mains to 100, two 12" midbass subs lateral to mlp from 40 to 110 (and an 18" up to 60 Hz), I have no idea there are other points emiting sound other than mains. And that's a stereo setup.
Those subs are shared with a HT system and couldn't localize them even when set atmos xovers at 180.
But those are my ears

 

[GalZohar]

Are they? most typical subwoofers are focused on the 80Hz to 20Hz range (and don't go sub/infra sonic) - the Delta between good bookshelves + 2 subs, and a pair of full range speakers (speakers with capabilities down into the 20hz to 30Hz range) - seems to me to be in the full range speakers favour rather than the bookshelves + subs!

My Main L & R are capable of 22Hz (+/- 3db) according to spec (if the woofer is driven via its subsidiary voice coil in a bi-amp configuration... a fairly unusual setup/feature) - my matching subs the now elderly Gallo TR1 is a sealed design variously specced at 20Hz (no details as to - ? db other specs in the past have mentioned 24Hz from memory... which is most likely the -3db point - it uses the same driver as the main speakers woofer, but mounted in a larger sealed volume... )

So yes the subs dig down a bit lower... but not by much and in terms of cost... yeah I strongly question your assumption given equal quality levels...

(On the other hand where a lower quality level sub is used with higher quality bookshelf mains - ... it might be possible... but then it isn't apples and apples is it!?)

You are just looking at the spec frequency response, which is misleading. You must look at the max spl where the speaker starts compressing, which will tell the true story of why speakers will lose to subs in cost effective bass output. Also the amp power needed. The SPL of the LFE channel is 10db higher than what most speakers can barely achieve as it is, even if they can reach reference level at bass frequencies for speakers (very unconmmon), they will still not be powerful enough for lfe.

 

[ThELiZ]

I have an x3800 and it is working fine with all speakers active. Did you perhaps choose some sound mode which ommits rears?

Thanks for that! This confirms I’ve been doing something wrong… I still haven’t had time to figure out what

 

[ooheadsoo]

Thanks for that! This confirms I’ve been doing something wrong… I still haven’t had time to figure out what

Can also confirm 7.4.4 active on my 3800 with art.

 

[NanoGuidingStar]

I also meant to correct my earlier description: This is a 9.4.4 setup, not 7.4.4.

The X3800H can only handle 11.4 channels. How did you achieve 9.4.4 channels? A 9.4.4 setup requires a model that supports 13.4 channels—in other words, you need a model like the X6800H or higher.

 

[Oddball]

You are just looking at the spec frequency response, which is misleading. You must look at the max spl where the speaker starts compressing, which will tell the true story of why speakers will lose to subs in cost effective bass output. Also the amp power needed. The SPL of the LFE channel is 10db higher than what most speakers can barely achieve as it is, even if they can reach reference level at bass frequencies for speakers (very unconmmon), they will still not be powerful enough for lfe.

There are speakers and there are speakers. Some subs will be more effective than mains, but the ones that @dlaloum refers (and I also happen to have 6 of them for surrounds) to are good to about 105dB at 50hz if recall correctly with less than 5% distortion, all while looking real pretty. The second voice coil is a nice plus, but did not really use that in 10 years or more. You need additional cabling and amps for the additional 10hz or so output - and I already have plenty to start with. If you can find them used, would be great addition for ART.

How you prioritize the system build up - and where you stop - is the key question. Not everyone has appetite or space for 4 subs. Getting some level of support from mains could be useful. After all, bookshelves and towers do tend to take the same floorspace, albeit today's towers do not come in small sizes with low extension.

 

[slaweks]

I must say I did not try to follow the advice yet, I will let you know when I do it.

Hi. So, I have tried. It worked as advertised: I could split my 4 subs group into two, and I was able to use the new group for supporting other groups.

 

[JeffH]

The X3800H can only handle 11.4 channels. How did you achieve 9.4.4 channels? A 9.4.4 setup requires a model that supports 13.4 channels—in other words, you need a model like the X6800H or higher.

Oops! I think I must have counted my front heights twice. So yes, 7.4.4.

 

[Daka]

An update on this. I bought the Denon 3800 and failed to get it to work with my two pairs of ACTIVE speakers. There simply is no way to switch between two pair of active speakers as front speakers (using the preouts) while sharing subwoofers. I would like to be corrected but unfortunately, I’m planning to sell it just a day after my purchase.

As said before speakers you can connect to different zones - provided 3800 does different zones. Subwoofers have only one set of outputs though so you would need to connect either your active speakers via subwoofer and handle crossover there (if a capable) or via active speakers (if capable ). Set subwoofers to auto detect source on those two inputs

 

[awf]

As said before speakers you can connect to different zones - provided 3800 does different zones. Subwoofers have only one set of outputs though so you would need to connect either your active speakers via subwoofer and handle crossover there (if a capable) or via active speakers (if capable ). Set subwoofers to auto detect source on those two inputs

How would zone 2 work with Dirac ART if connected the way you described? Do you have a 3800 and managed to get it behave the way you said?

 

[Daka]

How would zone 2 work with Dirac ART if connected the way you described? Do you have a 3800 and managed to get it behave the way you said?

No Dirac on zone 2 though. But why not do this:
The x3800h's speaker A and B outputs
allow you to connect either a single pair of speakers to the A terminals or two separate pairs to the A and B terminals

Not sure how the pre-out situation looks here though. If only one set then you need splitter and then connect to both. Manual control which set you turn on. Then run Dirac Art twice against two speaker setups.

 

[smile nya]

This is what I want, I don't need more sub power, but I can't select Group 8 as support for Group 7 as you can see in my last screenshot. I did turn off the Group 7 support for itself and try again. Still think it's weird that it's possible to select support for the same group, i.e. 7 support for 7.

I just exported both a Bass Control and ART filter (using the same measurement data) into my 3800 and both seem off in different ways. When I listen to 2 channel material in stereo the ART filter has weird, peaky/hollow mid bass that goes away when listening to the same track with Dolby on. The Bass Control filter is better in this respect but neither are as good as my previous Bass Control filter.

I'm going to remeasure tomorrow (9 measurements, as before) and see if things fall into place. I've been using Bass Control with Dirac Live since it came out and have had good success with it before this last measurement. I'm hoping this will also fix the Group 8 issue.

Each channel is automatically selected as its own channel (it cannot be excluded).

If a group consists of a pair of front speakers, a pair of surround speakers, or multiple subwoofers, you can deselect them since there are more than two speakers in that group.

As you can see, the center speaker can't be deselected, and there's no checkbox to select it.

As someone else mentioned, if there are four subwoofers, only the first subwoofer has a target graph.
The remaining subwoofers are part of the group, but are actually auxiliary speakers without target graphs. If multiple subwoofers are in a group, you can select the subwoofers themselves as auxiliary speakers.
Conversely, you can see this more clearly by dragging the remaining subwoofers to a separate group, excluding the first subwoofer. Leaving the first subwoofer alone will automatically select it.

And four subwoofers seem to behave differently than dba.

However, it seems like a bug that 7 groups don't support 8 groups.
That's strange.

 

[awf]

No Dirac on zone 2 though. But why not do this:
The x3800h's speaker A and B outputs
allow you to connect either a single pair of speakers to the A terminals or two separate pairs to the A and B terminals

Not sure how the pre-out situation looks here though. If only one set then you need splitter and then connect to both. Manual control which set you turn on. Then run Dirac Art twice against two speaker setups.

Speaker A supports preouts, Speaker B only accepts connection through the amplified terminals not the pre-outs, so I don’t think what you said is possible.

To use a splitter and rely on manually switching on and off speakers (which I’ll have to do by clicker the back of each Genelec, for example) I want to disable is undesirable. I wish the Denon gave me the flexibility of a minidsp device!

 

[smile nya]

No Dirac on zone 2 though. But why not do this:
The x3800h's speaker A and B outputs
allow you to connect either a single pair of speakers to the A terminals or two separate pairs to the A and B terminals

Not sure how the pre-out situation looks here though. If only one set then you need splitter and then connect to both. Manual control which set you turn on. Then run Dirac Art twice against two speaker setups.

I emailed Denon asking for a solution to this issue.

I believe the main and zone 2 speakers should be able to be configured separately.

For example, the MiniDSP ddrc88a offers this feature.
With the ddrc88a, you can split the eight channels into 2-channel, 4-channel, 2-channel, etc., as desired. And with Dirac, three zones can be displayed simultaneously. Dirac supports three settings.

However, Denon and Marantz do not offer this feature.
It's strange that the main and zone 2 speakers aren't working even though they're connected to different speakers.

Even if you can't share the subwoofer, I think the stereo speakers in zone 2 should at least have separate Dirac.