-
Welcome to ASR. There are many reviews of audio hardware and expert members to help answer your questions. Click here to have your audio equipment measured for free!
Active Room Treatment (ART) by Dirac
- Thread starter Flak
- Start date
I wonder about sound localization problems. I think that's their main concern.
But first I would like to see some measurements by people knowing how to present and interpret them (ie. not me
) about not using center channel for support, in order not to lose "clarity". What's this clarity, how does it measure, what's lost if one uses center to support other speakers. And why this wouldn't be a problem for other speakers? So far I'm happy with what I'm hearing but this aspect has piqued my curiosity.
It really depends on your center speaker and your setup. There are so many scenarios that would be difficult to even start.I wonder about sound localization problems. I think that's their main concern.
But first I would like to see some measurements by people knowing how to present and interpret them (ie. not me
For example, I don't include my center in the support group for rest of the speakers as already have too much support all around. But perhaps you should try and let us know if you are loosing any clarity along the way. My exclusion is purely on basis that overkill on top of overkill won't help. Could be different in your system.
It's not for me to go against widely shared recommendations. I constantly question what I'm hearing, wondering if I did mistakes, if it could be better, and so on and so forth. The last thing I need is adding yet another element of uncertainty.
I am serious - try it and let's see how it fares. Could be that common wisdom, if any, is not that common or wise. Would not be the first time. I am away from my system traveling so can't really do much right now.
Not that I heard off. It was beta tested to 300hz.
A charitable comment is AI's hallucinate....
A more biting one is they lie.
They are programmed to want to make the user happy.... and often will simply invent facts to meet that goal - hence caveat emptor!
Or someone uses AI for a court brief, and gets caught out due to AI inventing stuff!! - has happened multiple times now!
I can separate the subs into 2 groups but I can only "turn on" the existing group. When I try and check the box to include the new group it doesn't respond, leaving the box unchecked.
You can see this in the screenshot where Group 8 is the new group with the second pair of subs. I tried unchecking a couple other groups to see if this was a resource issue but still no luck.
The group 7 subs go subsonic and more quite powerful. The group 8 subs are to be used in ART to help correct the main subs. I only intend to have them go to 30Hz.
Any ideas?
Attachments
I also meant to correct my earlier description: This is a 9.4.4 setup, not 7.4.4.
I believe I experienced the same issue. Dirac support responded with this
Subwoofers seems to be missing on the Filter Design page, what is wrong? | Frequently Asked Questions
Everything is as it should be. The first subwoofer is the only one which will have the "dot" to the right of the subwoofer name.The corrected spectrum for the subwoofers will only show on this channel, as it is a target curve which represents all the subwoofers combined.Conceptually (in Dirac...
Are they? most typical subwoofers are focused on the 80Hz to 20Hz range (and don't go sub/infra sonic) - the Delta between good bookshelves + 2 subs, and a pair of full range speakers (speakers with capabilities down into the 20hz to 30Hz range) - seems to me to be in the full range speakers favour rather than the bookshelves + subs!
My Main L & R are capable of 22Hz (+/- 3db) according to spec (if the woofer is driven via its subsidiary voice coil in a bi-amp configuration... a fairly unusual setup/feature) - my matching subs the now elderly Gallo TR1 is a sealed design variously specced at 20Hz (no details as to - ? db other specs in the past have mentioned 24Hz from memory... which is most likely the -3db point - it uses the same driver as the main speakers woofer, but mounted in a larger sealed volume... )
So yes the subs dig down a bit lower... but not by much and in terms of cost... yeah I strongly question your assumption given equal quality levels...
(On the other hand where a lower quality level sub is used with higher quality bookshelf mains - ... it might be possible... but then it isn't apples and apples is it!?)
I doubt that is high on the priority list!!
In a theoretical, technology sense, this type of "unison" system used in a controlled (eg: car) environment has been tested at up to 4kHz according to Dirac.
But in our much much more uncontrolled living spaces, they released various beta test versions with capabilities of up to 500Hz... and in the end the released versions have been limited to 150Hz.
I think there are issues with taking the current system up beyond 150Hz... and extending down below 20Hz is likely going to provide a bigger marketing boost than extending it up beyond 150Hz... (as it would quiet all the noise from the infrasonic fanboys...)
I wouldn't expect anything in that area for a few years (but we could get lucky!)
I wonder whether real progress in the midrange frequency would require more precise location information for the speakers, and perhaps a similar mic to be used, to what Trinnov uses.... (which would also escalate costs - for possibly substantially diminishing returns?)
Thanks for the quick reply! I read this but not sure it addresses my problem, or at least as I understand it. I included a second screenshot with the second group, Group 8, as you can see it doesn't have the 3 little dots in the upper left corner of the group 8 box and doesn't look like it's turned on in the system, no filters etc.I believe I experienced the same issue. Dirac support responded with this
andSubwoofers seems to be missing on the Filter Design page, what is wrong? | Frequently Asked Questions
Everything is as it should be. The first subwoofer is the only one which will have the "dot" to the right of the subwoofer name.The corrected spectrum for the subwoofers will only show on this channel, as it is a target curve which represents all the subwoofers combined.Conceptually (in Dirac...helpdesk.dirac.com
Attachments
Right now ART is focused on the bass and mid-bass/high-bass regions...
In localisation terms - the cinema configurations all localise the main subs at the screen - so in a theoretical sense, front subs make sense.
On the other hand, there are two sides to the bass - first there is the bass in each of the channels - which are localised anywhere in the 360 degree 3D space... all channels are full range - all channels have bass - and that bass is in fact localised in all channels (including height!!!)
Then there is the LFE channel - which although in theatre specs located at the screen (literally behind the screen) - appears to have become a non localised bass effects channel.
Given the frequent use of a non localised LFE paradigm (going against theatre spec!) - it makes sense to attempt a non localisable "all around" bass envelopment... this can use subs all around, or leverage the non localisable nature of lower bass to achieve the effect.
The issues with non localisable bass is primarily that it is limited to sub 60Hz (roughly) and above that, the sub tends to be localisable to various degrees. Possibly due to harmonics - THD - of the main signal - keeping in mind that the 2nd harmonic of 60Hz is 120Hz - and well within the localisable frequencies, and that many subs have quite substantial THD - well above what is acceptable for main speakers.... so the localisability may well be the THD!
This may indicate benefits to be gained from low distortion subs...
We tend to wrap up all the bass from all the channels, and discuss "bass management" - but in a perfect world we want more bass capable speakers in their respective places (base layer and height speakers), so localisation of bass becomes a distinct bonus rather than a negative! - and perhaps the LFE should be defined as a FRONT Sub Bass channel - same as in theater specifications?
And one more screenshot showing there isn't a checkbox in group 8 to turn on support for group 7, which in the primary purpose for the group 8 subs.
Attachments
Is it because you have group 7 supporting itself?
Good point but I noticed this and turned that off, still can't turn on Group 8.
It seems odd that it even has a check box to support the same group that you're trying to correct, doesn't it? I noticed this in an another non-sub group, but not most. The fact that some can "support" their own group and some can't seems odd, like a bug?
Am I missing something?
They say "When a subwoofer is separated into a different group than the main LFE channel, it will not have a dedicated target curve directly associated to it. It will instead contribute to attain the target of each main channel group it is set to support, including the LFE channel." So, as I understand it, the group 8 can only be used for supporting other groups, and when doing it, for every primary group, you can specify its low and high support frequency.
Last edited:
This is what I want, I don't need more sub power, but I can't select Group 8 as support for Group 7 as you can see in my last screenshot. I did turn off the Group 7 support for itself and try again. Still think it's weird that it's possible to select support for the same group, i.e. 7 support for 7.
I just exported both a Bass Control and ART filter (using the same measurement data) into my 3800 and both seem off in different ways. When I listen to 2 channel material in stereo the ART filter has weird, peaky/hollow mid bass that goes away when listening to the same track with Dolby on. The Bass Control filter is better in this respect but neither are as good as my previous Bass Control filter.
I'm going to remeasure tomorrow (9 measurements, as before) and see if things fall into place. I've been using Bass Control with Dirac Live since it came out and have had good success with it before this last measurement. I'm hoping this will also fix the Group 8 issue.
Similar threads
