I must thank entire Dirac team for developing such great product as ART is. Not only it works, but it is virtually idiot proof. Amazing job all around.
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Active Room Treatment (ART) by Dirac
- Thread starter Flak
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DTSman
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- Feb 26, 2024
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Hello,
This week I installed Dirac ART on my Denon A10H AVR. I read a lot of documentation on how ART works, so I updated the Dirac software (v3.14.9) and took 17 new measurements in a new project. I created two separate equalizations: one that uses only the subwoofer group as support (55 filters used out of a total of 94), and another that uses other channels as support (91 filters used out of 94). I then uploaded the results into the other two slots of my AVR. The first slot already contains my Dirac Bass Control profile, which I use as a reference to compare with ART result.
I quickly ran into a problem. When I use an upmixer such as Neural X or Dolby Surround Upmixer, I experience severe distortion and clipping, particularly in the front wide channels. Moreover, when listening, the front wide channels seem to be overdriven, as if the upmixer’s effect had been applied twice. Audio expérience is unatural.
For context, my setup is a 9.4.4 configuration. My front wide speakers are JBL 8320, the same model as all the surround and Atmos speakers in my setup. The four subwoofers are identical JBL 3635 units.
I should also note that this issue occurs with both ART profiles I created, so it’s unlikely that I accidentally caused abnormal support of the front wides. However, when I stay in native decoding mode without upmixing, I have no saturation issues. The sound is clean, just like with my Bass Control calibration. The difference is that with the Bass Control slot, I can use upmixers without any distortion or crackling.
Even for Atmos native soundtrack front wide and front height speakers are overloaded of sounds therefore those speakers are not set as support speakers. Result is less natural than BC.
So not an efficient upgrade for me compare to BassControl.
PS: I sent mail to both helpdesk of Denon and Dirac team. Just waiting for an answer.
This week I installed Dirac ART on my Denon A10H AVR. I read a lot of documentation on how ART works, so I updated the Dirac software (v3.14.9) and took 17 new measurements in a new project. I created two separate equalizations: one that uses only the subwoofer group as support (55 filters used out of a total of 94), and another that uses other channels as support (91 filters used out of 94). I then uploaded the results into the other two slots of my AVR. The first slot already contains my Dirac Bass Control profile, which I use as a reference to compare with ART result.
I quickly ran into a problem. When I use an upmixer such as Neural X or Dolby Surround Upmixer, I experience severe distortion and clipping, particularly in the front wide channels. Moreover, when listening, the front wide channels seem to be overdriven, as if the upmixer’s effect had been applied twice. Audio expérience is unatural.
For context, my setup is a 9.4.4 configuration. My front wide speakers are JBL 8320, the same model as all the surround and Atmos speakers in my setup. The four subwoofers are identical JBL 3635 units.
I should also note that this issue occurs with both ART profiles I created, so it’s unlikely that I accidentally caused abnormal support of the front wides. However, when I stay in native decoding mode without upmixing, I have no saturation issues. The sound is clean, just like with my Bass Control calibration. The difference is that with the Bass Control slot, I can use upmixers without any distortion or crackling.
Even for Atmos native soundtrack front wide and front height speakers are overloaded of sounds therefore those speakers are not set as support speakers. Result is less natural than BC.
So not an efficient upgrade for me compare to BassControl.
PS: I sent mail to both helpdesk of Denon and Dirac team. Just waiting for an answer.
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I can not find documentation on this - please someone let me know if you can. I thought that this was a timing reference and set it to "center".
Release notes Dirac Live 3.13.2 explains it:
- The LFE group in ART now uses a non-subwoofer speaker to define its time target.
- ART utilizes the measured wavefront propagation of the main speaker in each microphone position to define the time target response for that channel.
- For the LFE channel, ART utilized the first subwoofer in the LFE group as main speaker for the LFE channel. However, this has two drawbacks:
- The main peak in a subwoofer’s impulse response can sometimes be difficult to detect. In cases where the detection has failed in one or more microphone positions, the resulting target may not represent a desired wavefront propagation.
- When multiple subwoofers are used, then ART may “unfairly” assign too much power to the first subwoofer, due to its measured capability to contribute more effectively to attaining the target (which was defined by its measured response) than the other subwoofers.
- The updated functionality will use a full-range speaker to define the time target for the LFE channel.
- If there is a Center speaker, ART will try to identify it and use it as target.
- If a Center speaker cannot be certainly identified, then ART will use either the Front Left or the Front Right speaker as target.
- The advanced ART settings for the LFE channel group has a drop-down menu to let the user manually override the automatic selection.
- ART utilizes the measured wavefront propagation of the main speaker in each microphone position to define the time target response for that channel.
Software Changelog
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47Hz at -6dB, in-room. Dirac suggests using the value at -3dB, if I'm not mistaken.
My KEF R7 Meta have published specs at 27Hz at -6dB in room (same kind of specification you provided). I have them set to support from 55Hz.
Based on what everyone has shared, this dropdown is a timing reference and should be set to Center if you have one or if not, to one of your L or R.
Yep, saw it in the change log posted by @TimoJ
I used to think Dirac ART always cut everything below 20 Hz, but I didn’t know this infra-bass bypass option existed.
After enabling the checkbox, the ultra-low frequencies below 20 Hz finally returned.
If your subwoofers have very high performance, I strongly recommend turning this option ON.
My JTR subwoofers now add a pleasant physical vibration below 20 Hz.
With this checkbox enabled, I honestly feel that the old Bass Control setup is no longer necessary for me.
In another room, I have a mixed system with JTR and HSU subs, so I’ll try grouping them separately next time — JTR group with infra-bass ON, HSU group OFF.
As for the support level, I personally didn’t feel any need to change the default –18 dB setting.
I still don’t fully understand every aspect of ART yet, but at least in my setup it’s working beautifully.
After enabling the checkbox, the ultra-low frequencies below 20 Hz finally returned.
If your subwoofers have very high performance, I strongly recommend turning this option ON.
My JTR subwoofers now add a pleasant physical vibration below 20 Hz.
With this checkbox enabled, I honestly feel that the old Bass Control setup is no longer necessary for me.
In another room, I have a mixed system with JTR and HSU subs, so I’ll try grouping them separately next time — JTR group with infra-bass ON, HSU group OFF.
As for the support level, I personally didn’t feel any need to change the default –18 dB setting.
I still don’t fully understand every aspect of ART yet, but at least in my setup it’s working beautifully.
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fadetoblackbs
Member
If I understand the Datasheet of my REL Sub correctly, it should work fine down to 24Hz.
This would match the curve Dirac Live is showing to me, because below that frequency it drops down, right?
Would you say the shown curve is fine and according to the Subs capabilities or is there any room left for a relevant improvement? (For example with a Dirac license upgrade or room treatment).
That shows the result using the basic Dirac Live license, as my AVR is only compatible with that license with no upgrades released (so far and probably forever).
Thanks =)
This would match the curve Dirac Live is showing to me, because below that frequency it drops down, right?
Would you say the shown curve is fine and according to the Subs capabilities or is there any room left for a relevant improvement? (For example with a Dirac license upgrade or room treatment).
That shows the result using the basic Dirac Live license, as my AVR is only compatible with that license with no upgrades released (so far and probably forever).
Thanks =)
Attachments
You'll see a difference it in pretty much every graph in the bass region tbh but of course most notably the waterfall and spectrogram. I finally got ART working yesterday, I had to take new measurements, with an "old project" (frankly it was pretty new, taken in juli with the newest Dirac version at the time), ART only spew out completey nonsense... so I'd recommend taking new measurements anyway even though most people will tell you it's not necessairy.
Here's my first results (DLBC ones are from an older set of measurements, so not quite a 100% apples to apples):
Pretty much the same result as me 
DLBC goes a bit lower in freq but i must have a highpass at ~20hz otherwise i cook my subs.
Both DLBC and ART made on the same measurement.
1/6 smoothing.
DLBC
ART
Group Delay
DLBC
ART
DLBC goes a bit lower in freq but i must have a highpass at ~20hz otherwise i cook my subs.
Both DLBC and ART made on the same measurement.
1/6 smoothing.
DLBC
ART
Group Delay
DLBC
ART
@fzst Given your sub capability, probably good to check infrasonic sub response on ART. It is obscure box on the right bottom of the screen that says "50". This will give a bit better run for the money to the subs. Otherwise, delay is still a bit hot. What configuration/support are you using?
That looks pretty good. Not sure why ART is not showing any major improvement, but I guess you were lucky to start with.Pretty much the same result as me
DLBC goes a bit lower in freq but i must have a highpass at ~20hz otherwise i cook my subs.
Both DLBC and ART made on the same measurement.
1/6 smoothing.
View attachment 482439
DLBC
View attachment 482440
ART
View attachment 482441
Group Delay
View attachment 482443
DLBC
View attachment 482444
ART
View attachment 482445
I got rid of the roller coaster at ~130-150hz also ART is without infra.
Subjectively, when i listen to music/movies there is bigger difference then i thought there would be.
DLBC bass has a rumble to it compared with Art.
And ART bass has a snap to it and it seems to affect the whole ART region.
Also, overtones (correct word?) from the bass benefits so the bass sound clearer
So at first ART seems to have less bass but switching between the two reveals it all.
I have 2 JBL 4645C in a baffle wall and 1 behind MLP and i like to play loud.
Was a bit affraid that i would loose x amount of output, i got lucky there to.
The room it self has a RT60 @ 0,2 - 0,25sec and is not air tight as a celler room can be.
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Thx I'm planning to check that out although my room's response under 20Hz is a mess anyways so without correction I might be better off with Dirac's HPF but I'll test it out.
The group delay? Well finally it's way better than with DLBC, that's really nice to see but yeah I don't know where the bump <30Hz is coming from, probably no issue though that deep down...
I'm currently running all 4 subs in one group.
? I would call that a pretty significant improvement.
I agree, that's how I'd describe it as well, I feel like the measurements underrepresent the audible difference (even though they are clearly visible).
I need more time to listen, test and compare though...
Honestly, my advice is not to even look into group delay. Not much you will ever be able to do about that except worry excessively. I'd add phase response to that as well. In my simple world, once you are good with FQ response and delay, you are good to go.
Or otherwise, what would be the tools that you could deploy to optimize group delay or phase?
GD with ART gets a hump at the highpass, you can barely see but i have the same.
But my scale stops at 20hz, yours at 10hz so it is more easy to see it on your measurement.
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