That might take a while as don't have that much time, but will do it at one point. Unless you have a large multi-purpose irregular room, my comparison might not be that relevant though. It really all works quite differently (mostly worse) than in a dedicated rectangular rooms.
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Active Room Treatment (ART) by Dirac
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fadetoblackbs
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In my case I have some SBIR issues I cant solve so far. The basic license for Dirac Live did not help me with this. Can I hope that ART will improve the SBIR issues I have on my room? (Dip in Bass around 35-45Hz). Or is it not intended/capable to solve that? I run a 5.1 system. Thanks.
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What makes you say that this is an SBIR issue rather than a room mode issue?
fadetoblackbs
Member
Oh nothing it is just my guess. Based on my basic knowledge and reading/watching.
When I search for help to solve bass dip problems SBIR is mentioned very often as the reason. I would not know how to identify the source of the problem. I attached a picture of the measurement on the post before but this might be a bit off topic. Sorry about that.
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ART can tackle your problem, depending on your setup. You say 5.1 so I assume you run one sub only? Do your speakers got town to 35 Hz?
If your answer is yes and no, ART won't find in your setup what it would need to tackle that nasty dip.
You'd need at least another sub (positioned accordingly) and / or beefy speakers.
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I have 3 subs, actually have a 4th i could connect up. L/C/R and surrounds go down to about 50Hz. Should I upgrade my trusty old 3600 to try ART?
ban25
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Fortunately, you don't need to redo the measurements, just load your existing project, configure with Bass Control enabled (not ART), set the crossover as desired, and upload to a new slot.
Chris Bolkan
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I am seriously considering buying a receiver/processor capable of running Dirac ART (most likely the Denon X4800H), but have a couple of unique issues I am hoping someone has explored now that ART is out in the wild being used. I have been following the related threads on this site for a long time.
My system has 2 very capable infinite baffle subwoofers that are by design located in the floor directly underneath the left and right main speakers. The rest of the system consists of the 2 mains which have a published F3 of 70 Hz and center, surround, surround back and 2 height speakers with an F3 of 85 Hz. All speakers are symmetrical around the sweet spot in an asymmetrical room with all speakers being approximately 13 feet from the sweet spot except for the subwoofers and center channel that are 15 feet from the sweet spot.
From what I have read the high F3 of the mains and surrounds may severely limit the support they can provide to the subs. There should be no problem with output level of the mains and surrounds to support the subs, but definitely lack in low frequency response. The first question is: Can I use smaller lower output subs to support the big IB subs by placing them closer to the listening spot in the near field? Or should they be placed against walls to have the desired influence? Along the same lines, how much actual "work" are the support subs performing in systems out there? Does their output need to come close to the main subs?
Second question is the IB subs themselves. They are not flat. I currently use a Mini DSP to flatten them in room. I have tried sub correction software before that "'looked" for the F3 of the subs, and found a cutoff that was WAY above the useful LF extension. I ended up having to make a shelving network so the SW could actually grab the sub and work with it to its capability. My question is will I have to pre equalize in order for ART to use the full capability of the subs? Is pre equalization even an option with something like the Mid range Denon receivers?
Many thanks for taking the time to read and digest what I just tried to ask!
My system has 2 very capable infinite baffle subwoofers that are by design located in the floor directly underneath the left and right main speakers. The rest of the system consists of the 2 mains which have a published F3 of 70 Hz and center, surround, surround back and 2 height speakers with an F3 of 85 Hz. All speakers are symmetrical around the sweet spot in an asymmetrical room with all speakers being approximately 13 feet from the sweet spot except for the subwoofers and center channel that are 15 feet from the sweet spot.
From what I have read the high F3 of the mains and surrounds may severely limit the support they can provide to the subs. There should be no problem with output level of the mains and surrounds to support the subs, but definitely lack in low frequency response. The first question is: Can I use smaller lower output subs to support the big IB subs by placing them closer to the listening spot in the near field? Or should they be placed against walls to have the desired influence? Along the same lines, how much actual "work" are the support subs performing in systems out there? Does their output need to come close to the main subs?
Second question is the IB subs themselves. They are not flat. I currently use a Mini DSP to flatten them in room. I have tried sub correction software before that "'looked" for the F3 of the subs, and found a cutoff that was WAY above the useful LF extension. I ended up having to make a shelving network so the SW could actually grab the sub and work with it to its capability. My question is will I have to pre equalize in order for ART to use the full capability of the subs? Is pre equalization even an option with something like the Mid range Denon receivers?
Many thanks for taking the time to read and digest what I just tried to ask!
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scotchrocks
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I think ART would do well with your room setup given the number of channels you have. The larger IB subs could be placed in a separate Dirac group from, say, 2 additional lower output subs in the future. Also, even with the higher F3 of mains/surrounds, they can still provide significant support from 80-150 Hz, which many rooms have challenges with.I am seriously considering buying a receiver/processor capable of running Dirac ART (most likely the Denon X4800H), but have a couple of unique issues I am hoping someone has explored now that ART is out in the wild being used. I have been following the related threads on this site for a long time.
My system has 2 very capable infinite baffle subwoofers that are by design located in the floor directly underneath the left and right main speakers. The rest of the system consists of the 2 mains which have a published F3 of 70 Hz and center, surround, surround back and 2 height speakers with an F3 of 85 Hz. All speakers are symmetrical around the sweet spot in an asymmetrical room with all speakers being approximately 13 feet from the sweet spot except for the subwoofers and center channel that are 15 feet from the sweet spot.
From what I have read the high F3 of the mains and surrounds may severely limit the support they can provide to the subs. There should be no problem with output level of the mains and surrounds to support the subs, but definitely lack in low frequency response. The first question is: Can I use smaller lower output subs to support the big IB subs by placing them closer to the listening spot in the near field? Or should they be placed against walls to have the desired influence? Along the same lines, how much actual "work" are the support subs performing in systems out there? Does their output need to come close to the main subs?
Second question is the IB subs themselves. They are not flat. I currently use a Mini DSP to flatten them in room. I have tried sub correction software before that "'looked" for the F3 of the subs, and found a cutoff that was WAY above the useful LF extension. I ended up having to make a shelving network so the SW could actually grab the sub and work with it to its capability. My question is will I have to pre equalize in order for ART to use the full capability of the subs? Is pre equalization even an option with something like the Mid range Denon receivers?
Many thanks for taking the time to read and digest what I just tried to ask!
For the IB subs, you can tailor the support range manually in Dirac, so you should be able to tweak it to your specifications. Also, I think since your speakers are rather far but evenly spaced from the sweet spot, it may make any support signals less noticeable (granted, I hadn't noticed much except perhaps some cancellation 'pressure' sensation prior to adjusting support levels). The listening distance could also mean that higher power amps would be beneficial. So, if you don't already have one, an external amp might be useful for some of the channels like LCR.
I've tried Audyssey, Multi-Sub Optimizer, Dirac Live Bass Control, and now ART, and ART has provided the best result in my room/setup with the least amount of tweaking required. I think anyone who has struggled with a challenging speaker or room configuration would benefit from it.
Dirac ART is now running on beta FW for Denon Xx800H AVRs!
Could CEC from some connected HDMI device somehow cause this problem? As i have Pc and Bluray in and only Pc screen on output.
www.audiosciencereview.com
Recent update on my ART experience. Just keeps getting better.
fadetoblackbs
Member
Well, if I check the specifications on the web for my rears, they go down to 47Hz.
If I read my chart using Dirac live (standard) the corrected curve goes down to approx. 27 Hz. (see attached).
So it is a good question if they would be helpful if I buy a new AVR and the ART license... what would you guess? That would be awesome as I dont have much space in my living room for a second sub...
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They would for sure be helpful. How much is to be seen. ART seems to roll off speakers with a bit of a cushion, as they note in their literature. Even if your speakers get 50hz contribution rating, that will be a contribution to the overall bass performance.
I am facing the issue of ART being too conservative with rating my bed channel speakers, but have yet to tweak that. I am quite confident in what my speakers can do and have tested that previously, so will try to push for more out of ART. Unless you have the same level of confidence, probably better to let it go.
I am facing the issue of ART being too conservative with rating my bed channel speakers, but have yet to tweak that. I am quite confident in what my speakers can do and have tested that previously, so will try to push for more out of ART. Unless you have the same level of confidence, probably better to let it go.
fadetoblackbs
Member
How could I tell what it is?
Today I tried changing the position of the sub from the left front corner to almost the right front corner of my room and the problem is almost gone as you can see on the pictures... well, the audio problem is gone... as this right position is not nice visually (even for me, not talking about my wife) and makes the L/R speakers not by symmetric as there is a sidboard on the right side that takes up some space and make the whole worse... so I am guessing if ART would help solving the problem that could be solved by changing the sub position =) - maybe I contact Dirac and ask for their opinion or just try it out if I see a nice offer for an AVR and the ART license for Black Friday...
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fadetoblackbs
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Check out the "good bass" and "bad bass" pictures - the curves are on my post below =)
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Nice setup! Can you pull the sideboard toward the camera slightly and stick the sub in that corner?
fadetoblackbs
Member
No - check out the picture and you will see that if I do so it will go beyond the room corner you barely see on the right as the room is "L-shaped".
Well i could do that just for fun and testing, but the sideboard is unfortunately too long, almost as long as the right wall if you know what I mean...
But you are right. Maybe I need a new sideboard!
Obvious answer now is mount the sub on the ceiling!
Chris Bolkan
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Wow! thank you for the insightful reply! That gets me more excited! That is a lot of what I am looking for especially the ability to tweak output at chosen frequencies. That may not make pre equalization of the subs necessary. I have separate high power amps for all channels and will not use any in what ever receiver/processor I buy that supports ART.
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