Active Room Treatment (ART) by Dirac

[Curvature]

DSP processing power shouldn't matter too much since the operative frequency range extends only to 150Hz.

 

[davidc]

ART IS HERE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
NO BASS CONTROL NEEDED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[NanoGuidingStar]

ART IS HERE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
NO BASS CONTROL NEEDED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I mean... if you have a subwoofer in your system, then you still need to buy Bass Control before ART. Read the official FAQ first

 

[DutchJay]

Can we share some set up tips?

Standard support level is -18 db. Is that from reference? So -6 is more support? Is minus 18 enough though? I run arendal towers with a beefy amp so could do -10?

I also heard that better not let your rear surround support the fronts and vica versa?

Plus, I run 1 sub and the programm did not automatically assign LFE to it. I stumbled on the fact that LFE was assigned to my center!! Weird...

Any other things?

 

[jtatknox]

I've only tried at -18 so far. I'm also not sure whether I should put my subs with independent outputs in different groups or how to set up with one main sub and two support. I can't hear -18 support levels coming from my center channel when in 2 channel mode but the speaker is definitely active by feel.

 

[jtatknox]

Can we share some set up tips?

Standard support level is -18 db. Is that from reference? So -6 is more support? Is minus 18 enough though? I run arendal towers with a beefy amp so could do -10?

I also heard that better not let your rear surround support the fronts and vica versa?

Plus, I run 1 sub and the programm did not automatically assign LFE to it. I stumbled on the fact that LFE was assigned to my center!! Weird...

Any other things?

That might be LFE timing you are seeing. I think that just uses center as a timing reference to try to make your LFE arrive when the center channel audio arrives.

 

[TimoJ]

Standard support level is -18 db. Is that from reference? So -6 is more support?

-24 is more (max) support, -6 is much less support. There is some weird Dirac "logic" behind these numbers...

 

[napfkuchen]

Nice! My experience with DLBC was not smooth so I'm going to wait for black friday. Some comprehensive guides / how-to-videos should be available by then.

 

[DutchJay]

Indeed it is the other way around, -24 is more.

Netx to this just found out that if your sub can do infrasonic (I think this is sub 20 herz in Dirac world) you need to put the sub group at 20 hz and click the little box on the left to make it produce that! You need to repeat that action for all speakers groups!!!

 

[DutchJay]

Another thing, most avrs are designed with crossovers in mind. They are not build to send bass to all speakers.

As ART does not use crossovers, does that mean that you need a beefy amp for each speaker that plays below 80hz?

Normally my subwoofer will pick up all below 80hz. I have a beefy stereo amp for my fronts, but not for the center and surrounds....

 

[kyuu]

Another thing, most avrs are designed with crossovers in mind. They are not build to send bass to all speakers.

Eh?

Denon X3800H seems to have little trouble down to 20Hz. More likely the speaker will be the limitation at bass frequencies than the AVR amp. Of course you're going to be using up overhead to generate the bass cancellation signals, so a "beefier" amplifier wouldn't hurt. Still wouldn't expect it to be an issue outside of the left/right/center channels, given how undemanding content for the other channels generally is.

 

[Oddball]

Another thing, most avrs are designed with crossovers in mind. They are not build to send bass to all speakers.

As ART does not use crossovers, does that mean that you need a beefy amp for each speaker that plays below 80hz?

Normally my subwoofer will pick up all below 80hz. I have a beefy stereo amp for my fronts, but not for the center and surrounds....

I would first try and see how far will AVR take it. I run surrounds with 125Wpc old Rotels and they have not clipped since the elder days when did not use AC. But then nothing wrong with rack of nice amps

 

[DutchJay]

Eh?

Denon X3800H seems to have little trouble down to 20Hz. More likely the speaker will be the limitation at bass frequencies than the AVR amp. Of course you're going to be using up overhead to generate the bass cancellation signals, so a "beefier" amplifier wouldn't hurt. Still wouldn't expect it to be an issue outside of the left/right/center channels, given how undemanding content for the other channels generally is.

But this is a 2 channel number right, will is do this with 5 channels full range and 4 heights is the Q?

 

[TimoJ]

As ART does not use crossovers, does that mean that you need a beefy amp for each speaker that plays below 80hz?

Is has filters, each group's lowest support range = "crossover filter".

 

[kyuu]

But this is a 2 channel number right, will is do this with 5 channels full range and 4 heights is the Q?

That wasn't tested on the X3800, but it's not likely to be much different than the numbers from the X3700:

Note these are the 8ohm figures, 4ohm will be higher. Of course you lose a bit of power for each additional channel being driven simultaneously, not likely to be a material concern though. Particularly if you're already offloading L/R to an external amp. Again, the content on the channels outside of the front L/C/R is not terribly demanding.

 

[scotchrocks]

I updated the firmware on my AV20 and re-used the same Dirac measurements except with ART enabled. I used all default ART settings aside from setting the target curve. So, in one Dirac preset I have the target curve with DLBC only (what I've been using for the last few months), and then in another Dirac preset I have the same target curve with ART. ART took quite a while longer on my computer to calculate filters than with just DLBC.

The defaults for ART have the support level at -18 dB with F-support High set to 150 Hz and Low set to 50-53 Hz for all channels, except subs down to 20 Hz. I was surprised that even the surround and Atmos channels were set that low since I'm running pretty small speakers (KEF Q4 and Q8 Meta).

My initial (10 minute) subjective impressions were really interesting. The first thing I noticed with ART is that the bass now sounds like it's coming locked in from the center channel. Swapping back to DLBC only, the bass feels spread out and slightly uneven. This was surprising because I was already quite satisfied with DLBC's integration of my 3 sub setup (versus what I could tweak with MSO/Audyssey previously), but ART is producing a bass image that reminds me of listening through headphones. Outside of imaging, the bass sounds less flabby and, again, more headphone-like.

I need to try this out more with music and movies, but I'm pretty excited so far that even with smaller Atmos/surround speakers, I can tell a subjective improvement. Maybe the number of support channels helps more than the size of each channel? And I wonder, would ART correction run out of steam if the volume increases beyond what the support channels can handle without distortion?

Anyways, I will have to do the wife listening test later to see if even she can tell. I'd also be curious to try measuring the ART changes with REW/UMIK-2, but I'm not sure what the easiest way would be to run measurements through the AV20.

 

[ThELiZ]

I updated the firmware on my AV20 and re-used the same Dirac measurements except with ART enabled. I used all default ART settings aside from setting the target curve. So, in one Dirac preset I have the target curve with DLBC only (what I've been using for the last few months), and then in another Dirac preset I have the same target curve with ART. ART took quite a while longer on my computer to calculate filters than with just DLBC.

The defaults for ART have the support level at -18 dB with F-support High set to 150 Hz and Low set to 50-53 Hz for all channels, except subs down to 20 Hz. I was surprised that even the surround and Atmos channels were set that low since I'm running pretty small speakers (KEF Q4 and Q8 Meta).

My initial (10 minute) subjective impressions were really interesting. The first thing I noticed with ART is that the bass now sounds like it's coming locked in from the center channel. Swapping back to DLBC only, the bass feels spread out and slightly uneven. This was surprising because I was already quite satisfied with DLBC's integration of my 3 sub setup (versus what I could tweak with MSO/Audyssey previously), but ART is producing a bass image that reminds me of listening through headphones. Outside of imaging, the bass sounds less flabby and, again, more headphone-like.

I need to try this out more with music and movies, but I'm pretty excited so far that even with smaller Atmos/surround speakers, I can tell a subjective improvement. Maybe the number of support channels helps more than the size of each channel? And I wonder, would ART correction run out of steam if the volume increases beyond what the support channels can handle without distortion?

Anyways, I will have to do the wife listening test later to see if even she can tell. I'd also be curious to try measuring the ART changes with REW/UMIK-2, but I'm not sure what the easiest way would be to run measurements through the AV20.

Thanks for your impressions. I will be very interested to hear how you get on. I’m watching all this with the view to getting a new receiver for ART. I currently use 4 subs (flattened with MSO) and A1 Evo Express.

 

[Frage]

I updated the firmware on my AV20 and re-used the same Dirac measurements except with ART enabled. I used all default ART settings aside from setting the target curve. So, in one Dirac preset I have the target curve with DLBC only (what I've been using for the last few months), and then in another Dirac preset I have the same target curve with ART. ART took quite a while longer on my computer to calculate filters than with just DLBC.

The defaults for ART have the support level at -18 dB with F-support High set to 150 Hz and Low set to 50-53 Hz for all channels, except subs down to 20 Hz. I was surprised that even the surround and Atmos channels were set that low since I'm running pretty small speakers (KEF Q4 and Q8 Meta).

My initial (10 minute) subjective impressions were really interesting. The first thing I noticed with ART is that the bass now sounds like it's coming locked in from the center channel. Swapping back to DLBC only, the bass feels spread out and slightly uneven. This was surprising because I was already quite satisfied with DLBC's integration of my 3 sub setup (versus what I could tweak with MSO/Audyssey previously), but ART is producing a bass image that reminds me of listening through headphones. Outside of imaging, the bass sounds less flabby and, again, more headphone-like.

I need to try this out more with music and movies, but I'm pretty excited so far that even with smaller Atmos/surround speakers, I can tell a subjective improvement. Maybe the number of support channels helps more than the size of each channel? And I wonder, would ART correction run out of steam if the volume increases beyond what the support channels can handle without distortion?

Anyways, I will have to do the wife listening test later to see if even she can tell. I'd also be curious to try measuring the ART changes with REW/UMIK-2, but I'm not sure what the easiest way would be to run measurements through the AV20.

The information is quite rare at the moment for ART, bought the license but it is overwhelming.

From one of the few doc we can read it says :
Don't check infra bass for L R SR unless SW can handle it. From my subwoofer spec sheet I can go down 18Hz, I don't think this is enough for infra bass (and neighbor will be happy).
Don't use C in any of the filters (So I didn't enable the Grp2 in any of the filter).
Only use L R SW for Center filter (So I didn't enable the Grp 3).
Use F3 Frequency from the spec sheet for the F-support low.

I tried these settings with -18dB for all group except surrounds (-6). I noticed difference in seat to seat sound (improvement). But I will never know which settings is the most optimized.

The "Support level" is obscure, especially since it say don't use below -6 if it is close speaker, but what is a close speaker, especially when the speaker is Triaxial.

Running simple 5.1 with Arendal 1723S Monitor / Surround / Sub in sealed mode.

 

[napfkuchen]

Particularly if you're already offloading L/R to an external amp. Again, the content on the channels outside of the front L/C/R is not terribly demanding.

Thanks for the input! My L/C/R speakers are active, and the other six speakers are all Kef LS50 Meta. I'm curious but also a bit unsure how these little speakers will perform with ART.

 

[DutchJay]

The information is quite rare at the moment for ART, bought the license but it is overwhelming.

From one of the few doc we can read it says :
Don't check infra bass for L R SR unless SW can handle it. From my subwoofer spec sheet I can go down 18Hz, I don't think this is enough for infra bass (and neighbor will be happy).
Don't use C in any of the filters (So I didn't enable the Grp2 in any of the filter).
Only use L R SW for Center filter (So I didn't enable the Grp 3).
Use F3 Frequency from the spec sheet for the F-support low.

I tried these settings with -18dB for all group except surrounds (-6). I noticed difference in seat to seat sound (improvement). But I will never know which settings is the most optimized.

The "Support level" is obscure, especially since it say don't use below -6 if it is close speaker, but what is a close speaker, especially when the speaker is Triaxial.

Running simple 5.1 with Arendal 1723S Monitor / Surround / Sub in sealed mode.

Who wrote that doc?