Without the angles it should have worked, lesson learned
Cant wait to see the impact and the result
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Active Room Treatment (ART) by Dirac
- Thread starter Flak
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Cant wait to see the impact and the result
johnmartmill
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Can ART audibly improve my system's performance? I have an ongoing debate (now: pissing match) between Claude and Gemini involving my 7.4.4 (technically 7.1.4) system. After spending a week calibrating my 4 Franken-sub system with REW / MiniDSP and A1 Acoustix Evo, the below is the best I can do. From what I can tell, at the MLP I get great response from 14 - 50Hz and very good from 60-120, but there's a big -15dB notch in the 50s. This notch does not change when the mic is moved 6" in any direction. Gemini says you can't hear that; your ears roughly average in 30dB chunks at this level and thus would only perceive 3dB of loss. 2 of my subs (an infinite baffle and Monoprice M-15) are on the front wall while the other two subs (DefTech 10/10 IW) are to the left/right of MLP at the ceiling. Nothing can be moved-- it's all built into the house now. Those DefTechs were bought to attack nulls and they filled all of them other than the 50-60 Hz one, so although they aren't powerful, they are doing some good work.
Subs only:
My LCRs show similar behavior, but are worse in the crossover region:
The right seat is not good for any of my LCR speakers (several nulls):
Since I am the only critical listener in the house and I sit at MLP, I'm not too worried about the other seats or the back row, but I'd rather it not sound like junk because even non-critical listeners can notice. Both Claude and Gemini do agree that more treatments wouldn't help since my waterfalls are already good (also: moving around a package of Roxul to the corners didn't help anything), and since solving decay is ART's best quality, it seems I'm not getting that massive benefit. So what should be my realistic expectations for ART, both at the MLP and other seats?
IfI do get a new pre/pro it would be the Marantz AV 20. It's the only one that does front wides and ART at its price. After I sell old gear it would be a roughly $3500 upgrade. Worth it?
My system:
Denon X6700H
KEF Ci3160RL (LCR), Ci200QR (front wide / surround), Ci160QR (4x ceiling)
Infinite Baffle sub (2x 18" Fi), Monoprice Monolith M-15, 2x DefTech 10/10 IW w/ Crown amps for the passive subs
Buckeye Hypex nCoreX amp (LCR), Monoprice M7100X for surrounds
Subs only:
My LCRs show similar behavior, but are worse in the crossover region:
The right seat is not good for any of my LCR speakers (several nulls):
Since I am the only critical listener in the house and I sit at MLP, I'm not too worried about the other seats or the back row, but I'd rather it not sound like junk because even non-critical listeners can notice. Both Claude and Gemini do agree that more treatments wouldn't help since my waterfalls are already good (also: moving around a package of Roxul to the corners didn't help anything), and since solving decay is ART's best quality, it seems I'm not getting that massive benefit. So what should be my realistic expectations for ART, both at the MLP and other seats?
IfI do get a new pre/pro it would be the Marantz AV 20. It's the only one that does front wides and ART at its price. After I sell old gear it would be a roughly $3500 upgrade. Worth it?
My system:
Denon X6700H
KEF Ci3160RL (LCR), Ci200QR (front wide / surround), Ci160QR (4x ceiling)
Infinite Baffle sub (2x 18" Fi), Monoprice Monolith M-15, 2x DefTech 10/10 IW w/ Crown amps for the passive subs
Buckeye Hypex nCoreX amp (LCR), Monoprice M7100X for surrounds
And what do you say? Can you hear it?
Are you currently using regular bass management? If so, what is the crossover? I guess I'm asking: Can the 55 Hz dip be a cancellation issue at the crossover?
Anyway, Dirac ART would most probably be able to sort out crossover issues or problems with nulls. You have four subs in addition to other speakers, which leaves ART with a lot to work with.
Yes it will, if your speakers and subwoofers have good response in that range.
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Those waterfall graphs are not pretty. I say go for the AV20 and use those discrete SW outputs!
Yes
Only you can answer that but well executed DSP is going to be your best "bang for the buck" with the level of equipment you have.
johnmartmill
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Yes, am using bass management. Tried 40 (recommended by AcoustiX), 60 and 80 Hz. None solved the null. Separating the subs, adjusting gain and timing got it at least to this point. It’s a boundary null for sure.
Can I hear it? To be honest, not sure. System sounds good, I can say that. Bass is much more cohesive now that I integrated the Monoprice sub. But it’s hard to say if there is there more to be found
Do you mean SBIR? Coming from the subs (since you say you tried crossover at 80 Hz)? If your subs are built into the walls, like you say above, then not likely. Besides, SBIR dips tend to be broad, not thin like the dip on your graph.
Instead, I would suspect the dip is caused by your MLP being close to a null of a room mode. Is any of your subs close to a corner? If you are able to play that sub alone, you would excite all the modes. See if you can turn that dip into a peak by sticking the mic into another corner as a test.
I'm no expert, but as EWL5 stated above, those waterfall plots do NOT look good since they are crashing into you on the Z axis from 20-80Hz. With 4x subs, odds are pretty good that ART can do quite a bit for you. I only have 2x and I'm still considering it aka waiting for the Tide16 review.
Dirac RC+BC+ART can only fill a null if some sub or speaker is positioned where it can actually produce that frequency at your seat, otherwise there is nothing for Dirac to work with.
The nice thing with the full Dirac suite is that it can utilize speakers, not just subs, to assist in filling in LF nulls. Looks like all your lower speakers, and maybe even your ceiling speakers, can play down to 50Hz with decent output. Some of your speakers may share the same null the subs do, but maybe you get lucky and your front wides or surrounds or others are in good locations.
If you really can't move any of the speakers or subs, maybe you can move your listening position? Even if you don't want to move your MLP, it's worth experimenting with to understand the problem.
To really nail this down, some info would be helpful
1) Do a sweep from the MLP of each sub and speaker, uncorrected, individually and see if any of them don't have that null.
2) What is the shape of your room?
3) What are the dimensions of your room, including height?
4) Where are your subwoofers located in the room? (Distances from front or back wall, left or right wall, and floor or ceiling)
5) Where are your speakers located? (Again, distances from walls in all three dimensions)
6) Where in the room are your ears? (Again, distances from walls in all three dimensions)
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Waterfalls that extend out to 800-1000ms, one that is subs only and another that is all subs and speakers, would be better data. But, energy remaining at 300 ms seems high, so I think ART is likely to help with decay.
Do you already have any treatment? If so, how much and how thick? LF absorption is typically far too thick to be practical in living areas, or maybe this is a dedicated space? But yeah, ART for decay control below 150Hz, absorption panels for above 150Hz.
Keith_W
Master Contributor
To be fair, most people can't hear dips in bass because they aren't used to systems that are flat down that low and also because of the nature of music. Some types of music make it easier to hear bass deficiencies than others, e.g. pipe organ where notes are long and you can hear some notes noticeably softer. Not to mention, the missing fundamental effect "fills in" bass notes which are not there - so even if the note is not reproduced, it is still perceived. Unlike deficiencies higher up the frequency range, bass dips do not produce a change in tonality (e.g. "honky" or "bright") but a change in weight and sense of authority - that is very difficult to perceive if you aren't used to hearing it.
It is much easier to hear it if you have a flat response and then introduce some dips, than to have some dips and try to imagine what a flat response sounds like. Despite years of experience listening to my system (which DOES have a flat bass response), I still can't reliably pick dips when I listen to a system that is new to me. But I can easily and reliably pick problems higher up the frequency range.
About the only reliable way to audibly hear a dip in bass is to play test tones at different frequencies.
KenMasters
Senior Member
The null could be due to mismatched phase between subs. Could you overlay the uncorrected individual measurements of each sub? That would give a much better idea of what ART could potentially do for you.
johnmartmill
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Appreciate all of the responses. My room looks like this. MLP is in the front-center of cyan box. LCR speakers are behind screen. Front wides are in the corners. 2 subs are beneath screen, one centered, the other offset to the right. The other two subs are directly to the left and right of MLP at ceiling being (9' ceiling).
View attachment 554613
There are 15 absorption panels throughout the room (such as first reflection points, but also in the back of the room). I have a bass trap in the nook corner (didn't make much difference) and I've tried bass trapping the more in the nook and in the closet corners.
The waterfalls only look bad because the Y axis is too long. AI likes them.
Mismatched phase is not the problem. I've tried nearly all combinations of phase, working by increments of 1ms on each sub.
Finally, someone asked for sub measurements from different locations. Here's the sub array's measurements at the center, left and right seat locations.
Hopefully that covers the questions.
View attachment 554613
There are 15 absorption panels throughout the room (such as first reflection points, but also in the back of the room). I have a bass trap in the nook corner (didn't make much difference) and I've tried bass trapping the more in the nook and in the closet corners.
The waterfalls only look bad because the Y axis is too long. AI likes them.
Mismatched phase is not the problem. I've tried nearly all combinations of phase, working by increments of 1ms on each sub.
Finally, someone asked for sub measurements from different locations. Here's the sub array's measurements at the center, left and right seat locations.
Hopefully that covers the questions.
Why would you have any doubt about using ART? The AV20 supports four subs independently (which you need), and you have eleven other speakers. You will get a great result.
You just have to familiarize yourself to with the articles at helpdesk.dirac.com in the ART section in order to better refine the filters to suit your particular system. An hour or so of reading and you are set.
I suggest that you ignore your AI friends.
KenMasters
Senior Member
That doesn't mean there's not a phase mismatch, shifting in increments of 1ms does nothing to adjust the linearity of the individual sub's phase. If you unwrap the phase of each sub you'll see there are non-linear kinks / rotations along each, leading to a non-ideal summation of the individual responses.
ART can rotate phase at individual points along the frequency range for each sub so that they align better when summed, and integrate your speakers in similar fashion.
EDIT: I misunderstood the graph you posted. I thought it was of the individual sub measurements. If you post the individual sub measurements at the MLP, we can compare them with the final result and see what potential is there for ART to improve on what you've managed (outside of what the speakers would also contribute).
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I am curious about what those frequency responses look like with psycho acoustic smoothing.
johnmartmill
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Here's my subs individually (uncalibrated) and then summed as two groups.
Also, here's what KEF lists as the frequency response (±6dB):
LCRs: 45Hz - 28kHz
Front Wide / Surrounds: 35Hz - 34kHz
Atmos: 38Hz - 34kHz
But note that AcoustiX measure the LCRs better than that and the rest of the speakers far worse.
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I'm not referring to your Y-axis. Your Z-axis (decay) is dreadful. ART would fix most of that in a heartbeat.
If you think your system is fine, I've got nothing more to say.
I’m not sure how audible that null actually is, but ART should give you a much smoother frequency response while keeping distortion low. More importantly, I’d really like you to experience what clean bass with very short decay sounds like. That, to me, is one of the most impressive things about ART.
If you really don’t want to spend $3,500 without knowing whether you’ll like it, you could try ART on a PC first. Connect your AVR to the PC via HDMI, configure it as a 7.1-channel device in Windows, and use the trial licenses for Dirac Live Processor, Bass Control, and ART.
Even a simple 2.1 setup should be enough to tell whether you like what ART does. And if you want to go further, you can assign the AVR’s surround-channel outputs to additional subwoofers in Dirac Live Processor and try two speakers with four independently controlled subs.
That would let you experience ART in your own room before deciding whether the AV 20 is worth the upgrade.
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