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Active Room Treatment (ART) by Dirac
- Thread starter Flak
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That's how I currently did, but wondering, if there are better options. Guess I have to try.
Do your L+R support each other as well? I choose not to (removed the tickmark) to maintain channel separation.
KenMasters
Senior Member
Yes, they support each other. I don't think it hinders channel separation.
I have a sub to the side of each speaker, if I look at what ART is doing, the sub collocated with the speaker is emphasised when that speaker is playing.
But you still have your sub as support and not included in the group of your mains? When you do it like that, do you extend the target curve deeper than your mains can play - as the measurements of the subs are not included in target curve design, when they are in a separate supportgroup.
KenMasters
Senior Member
Your question has me unclear on your setup. Your four subs, are they initially grouped as LFE or do you have them set up as speakers only?
In the case of the latter, I would imagine you're stuck with whatever the F3 of your speakers. You would keep the subs in their own speaker group, but they would only be able to assist the L&R speakers within their set parameters. I have no experience with such a setup, but this is how I imagine it would have to work.
If it's a conventional setup with your subs grouped under LFE, keep them that way - unless one or more is less capable than the other. In that case split it out and set an appropriate range for it.
Do not put it in the speaker group, only speakers with matching performance should be in a group - groups are intended to make life easier in regards setting parameters.
KenMasters
Senior Member
Ah, you're using Live Processor, I'm not familiar with it, but thinking about it I suppose it shouldn't make a difference if you have an LFE group for stereo content or not (assuming Live Processor doesn't allow you to nominate an LFE channel).
If the L&R speaker group's target curve runs the full frequency range, then it should recruit the subs to achieve that response. Keep the subs separate if you wish, it doesn't matter. Keep the speakers in their separate group and have everything support everything else.
After you hit calculate you'll see by the response if it worked or not. Just be sure to set your speakers to an appropriate range.
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Regarding stereo music, since that is what I set my 4.4.4 ART system up for, I would not be concerned with the concept of needing to tie a sub to a speaker or the concept of stereo bass. The thing is, before setting up ART, and since I built my desktop system 4 years ago with quad stereo subs (see Quad 8" subs for my office), I have been really sold on running stereo bass for 2 channel music. I don't want to start that whole discussion again, but the difference was very noticeable to me from day one and has been ever since. Stereo bass was the biggest thing I was worried about with ART. I fully assumed summing bass to mono would be the protocol and I'd get bass stacked up in the middle of my head again instead of feeling spacious. After getting ART all set up and listening to a broad range of Jazz recordings as well as lots of down tempo electronica and atmospheric stuff, I think ART accomplishes the same spacial bass effects and then some. Bass does not stack up in my head other than on albums where it's mono bass. The bass-to-speaker localization is much better to me than it was with my quad stereo sub setup, as in the bass sounds like it's coming directly from the speaker with ART. I do not miss "stereo bass" and I think ART far surpasses what I was getting from it.
One of the ways that ART seems to maintain directional bass is by supporting the playing speaker strongest with nearby speakers. I can see this in the ART interface when I turn on the filters and click on the L or R main. For the R main, the R surround will support more than the left, the R front height will support more than the left one, and the same for the rear heights. The front R height supports my R main more than the rear R height even though the R is more capable (Revel 6" vs True Mini 4"). Maybe my room just played out that way, but it looks intentional. The directional/spacial queues are very impressive in the bass. I also noticed that the support filters for the subs are very different for both channels as to which subs are supporting how much, but it doesn't appear to be weighted by location at all. Either way, when the front R speaker plays, ART does everything it can to make the bass sound like it's coming directly from that speaker, and it works incredibly well.
As long as I'm going on, I have to say this whole dry bass thing sounds so good to me. I didn't realize just how much bass I was drowning in until it was gone. The smearing is gone and bass instruments sound more like instruments. It's really quite something. The clarity that has opened up in the bass has me thinking about how with normal EQ we cut down room peaks by cutting down direct sound from the speaker, resulting in a higher proportion of "room sound" at that frequency vs direct sound. It's better than the boom, but it's still a compromise. I seems like with ART doing it's thing that a larger fraction of the pressure at the listening position is part of the intended wavefront rather than uncontrolled modal ringing, and I have to think that's also where some of the clarity is coming from. Not my field of expertise though.
One of the ways that ART seems to maintain directional bass is by supporting the playing speaker strongest with nearby speakers. I can see this in the ART interface when I turn on the filters and click on the L or R main. For the R main, the R surround will support more than the left, the R front height will support more than the left one, and the same for the rear heights. The front R height supports my R main more than the rear R height even though the R is more capable (Revel 6" vs True Mini 4"). Maybe my room just played out that way, but it looks intentional. The directional/spacial queues are very impressive in the bass. I also noticed that the support filters for the subs are very different for both channels as to which subs are supporting how much, but it doesn't appear to be weighted by location at all. Either way, when the front R speaker plays, ART does everything it can to make the bass sound like it's coming directly from that speaker, and it works incredibly well.
As long as I'm going on, I have to say this whole dry bass thing sounds so good to me. I didn't realize just how much bass I was drowning in until it was gone. The smearing is gone and bass instruments sound more like instruments. It's really quite something. The clarity that has opened up in the bass has me thinking about how with normal EQ we cut down room peaks by cutting down direct sound from the speaker, resulting in a higher proportion of "room sound" at that frequency vs direct sound. It's better than the boom, but it's still a compromise. I seems like with ART doing it's thing that a larger fraction of the pressure at the listening position is part of the intended wavefront rather than uncontrolled modal ringing, and I have to think that's also where some of the clarity is coming from. Not my field of expertise though.
KenMasters
Senior Member
It's the way it works in my system as well, the sub alongside the right speaker is emphasised for the right and left sub for the left. Emphasis is strongest higher up in the bass range.
I've also experimented with a stereo sub setup and did found it more "open" sounding, but stuck with mono due to better overall response. With ART I seem to get the best of both.
I tried an ART setup for stereo bass (the two left subs for the left speaker and vice versa) and found no difference in the sense of spaciousness, but of course the summed response was smoother.
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Not sure what you mean by this? In ART you decide which subs support which speakers. This is documented on the Dirac support pages.
I’m afraid this is a lack of understanding of how room modes work. One important fact about sound reproduction in rooms is that there is a transition frequency - the Schroder frequency - which is about 200-300 Hz in normal listening rooms, and below this frequency the sound field act as a collective system. There is no separation between direct sound and reflected sound. Read up on standing waves. You can certainly cut down peaks by cutting down sound from one speaker, but that is not in general how ART would cut down peaks. Instead, it will emit sound from several speakers simultaneously in different pressure zones of the modes, and together this will combat the peaks.
I also have a comment about stereo bass: Not everyone can have stereo bass, depending on their setup. I have my listening position in a corner and my subs are positioned the only places they can go, which is not to the left and right. So stereo bass is no-go in my case. On the other hand, I enjoy deep, satisfying bass, no problematic directional cues, with all the slam I need - in mono.
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I don't know how to explain it any better than I said in the sentences following the one that you quoted unless you need me to take a bunch of screenshots for you. Do you have support speakers, or just mains/subs?
Yeah... you are implying I said suggested things I didn't here and don't know things that I do. Not gonna dig in and nitpick tho as I don't care enough and I hate back and forth. So... ok.
Yeah, the difference between stereo vs mono bass (subwoofer) isn't worth getting your undies in a bunch. As long as direction holds the way you want you're good to go. With my last setup, with mono bass the mid-upper register of an upright bass would come from one side of the stage, and then the low end came from the center. With stereo bass the whole instrument range came from the correct side — same thing with ART, so I'm super happy.
To be fair, your posted results of L and R speakers in post #4511 with Dirac ART looks great. Do you have stereo bass in that setup? It would be interesting to see a L+R measurement with that same setup, i.e. L and R playing at the same time, the same sweep, in mono.
KenMasters
Senior Member
Assuming he means the same thing I mean, take a look here, 1 is the sub alongside the left speaker, 2 alongside the right speaker. You can see how higher in the bass range the sub closest is emphasised for that speaker (above 100Hz raw response of subs is roughly the same):
Left
Right:
Left:
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Again, I’m not sure what is meant. If you want to set up stereo bass with ART, you 1) split the front speaker group in two - Front L group and Front R group, and 2) split your subs in two groups - Sub L group and Sub R group. Then have Sub L support Front L, and Sub R support Front R.
KenMasters
Senior Member
Yes, I've tried that as well, but what we're trying to communicate is that ART by default doesn't sum bass uniformly - even if you don't split things out, the algorithm will bias bass output to the location of the speaker to which the bass is directed.
Further to this, timing is also offset to other bass sources so that the bass wave is made to travel from that central point.
In this way ART behaves much like a stereo bass setup without the need for an explicit stereo bass configuration.
Good question,
I would try these, corners a mix of high and low - rest at sweet spot for every seat
Or, every point differs in height
Important is 30cm/1feet minimum between points and change height as much as position
You could do a box measurement for each seat but i dont think/know if it would help
Th
Perhaps I didn't make it clear I have 4 seats in 2x2 config
Regardless, your suggested pattern makes sense for a multi row config although I would have thought the initial measurement should be centred between the head position of all the seats (in all three dimensions)?
Thanks
Perhaps I didn't make it clear I have 4 seats in 2x2 config
Regardless, your suggested pattern makes sense for a multi row config although I would have thought the initial measurement should be centred between the head position of all the seats (in all three dimensions)?
That's really your choice, do you want it centered on one seat (if you want it optimized for yourself
), or between the two front row seats, so two people get it "almost perfect".What you can also do (and what I do), is take all measurement with one MLP, save the project "Project xyz center", and remeasure the MLP for a second position, and save that as "Project xyz left", for example. That way you can switch between two presets for when you listen to music alone, and watch a movie with someone else.
For pure movie application both ways could work.That's really your choice, do you want it centered on one seat (if you want it optimized for yourself
What you can also do (and what I do), is take all measurement with one MLP, save the project "Project xyz center", and remeasure the MLP for a second position, and save that as "Project xyz left", for example. That way you can switch between two presets for when you listen to music alone, and watch a movie with someone else.
Also, every speaker should "see" the mic on every measured position - it often screw things up if it doesent.
