Active Room Treatment (ART) by Dirac

[fzst]

Once I drew the preference curve to match the drop-off of my surround speakers, the results are far better and there is no more reverse sounding kick. The drawback probably is if I am gaming, the overall low-end response of the surround speakers will be lower because now Dirac thinks I am applying a filter and I don't want the speakers to use low-end even though the subwoofers could handle it. Because this way the subwoofers also do not get the low range they are usually getting. Dirac ART is pretty weird in this sense.

I don't quite understand why you had to alter the target curve for your surround speakers, essentially cutting the low end (produced by the subs) for those channels. Why couldn't you just limit the support produced by your surrounds int he ART settings, telling Dirac it has to use the subs instead of the surround speakers to produce the low end of the surround channels?

 

[anphex]

After speaking with the kind Dirac support, we came to the conclusion that the subwoofer placement was critical. Dirac tries its best to fix the room acoustics, but if you are triggering room modes on one side of the room extremely, Dirac can only do so much. I flipped my subwoofers back to front left and rear right, which already comes with a naturally better room mode distribution, and now the pre-ringing is a lot better. What really fixed the pre-ringing was that for whatever reason Dirac decided to use my surround speakers as low as 20 Hz, even though the measurement showed a clear hard roll-off and those speakers should be never touched below that point. Dirac did not care and still tried. So basically the pre-ringing I was hearing was a distortion of my surround speakers. Once I drew the preference curve to match the drop-off of my surround speakers, the results are far better and there is no more reverse sounding kick. The drawback probably is if I am gaming, the overall low-end response of the surround speakers will be lower because now Dirac thinks I am applying a filter and I don't want the speakers to use low-end even though the subwoofers could handle it. Because this way the subwoofers also do not get the low range they are usually getting. Dirac ART is pretty weird in this sense.

Gotta correct myself, part of my post was bs.

Dirac ART works perfectly fine, but demands are careful tuning of support levels (-1 to -60db) and ranges (behave more or less like a second order rolloff).
Meaning: small speakers need careful tuning. For example, setting FSIO to 120 Hz means the group will play well into 150 Hz + audibly. Also, the defaul -18dB support level are rather high for small speakers. Remember, it's basically blind to the distortion of your speaker + the documentation quality is very shallow.

My current setup:

Fronts Genelec 8341:
Support range: 70 Hz to 100 hz
Support Level allowance: -18dB

Surround Nubert NuVero 30:
Support: completely disabled because they are wall mounted above rear wall subwoofers, making support here pointless.

Subwoofer x3 KEF KC92
Support Range 20 Hz to 100 Hz
Support Level allowance: -60dB


Results: awesome.

 

[RenPa]

I thought that equalizing my subs to achieve a more linear frequency response might help Cinema 30 and Art with the infrabass option (see the discussion from a while back). After several measurement tests with Dirac using 9, 13, or 17 positions, the results varied too much from one session to the next to be worthwhile. Back to standard subwoofer measurements and no infrabass.

 

[EWL5]

I thought that equalizing my subs to achieve a more linear frequency response might help Cinema 30 and Art with the infrabass option (see the discussion from a while back). After several measurement tests with Dirac using 9, 13, or 17 positions, the results varied too much from one session to the next to be worthwhile. Back to standard subwoofer measurements and no infrabass.

I think if a member using ART were to find the "holy grail" of repeatable infrabass tweaks that work, they would be signed by Dirac ASAP! LOL!

 

[RenPa]

I think if a member using ART were to find the "holy grail" of repeatable infrabass tweaks that work, they would be signed by Dirac ASAP! LOL!

VEREY GOOD! NOw I know . And will wait and see what happens...??!! as many others!

 

[azzy_mazzy]

Do any of the available devices with ART allow you to have speakers which are support only? Meaning no normal output is sent to them. Fairly confident that the upcoming PC version will have that flexibility but wondering about the AVR/AVP?

 

[TimoJ]

Do any of the available devices with ART allow you to have speakers which are support only?

In 2ch stereo all speakers support.

 

[Oddball]

In 2ch stereo all speakers support.

To the extend you assign them to support and don't upmix. Can do same with 5.1 signal if have e.g. 9.4.6 system - although in that case not sure why one would not want to upmix to full channel count.

 

[Capsa]

Do any of the available devices with ART allow you to have speakers which are support only? Meaning no normal output is sent to them. Fairly confident that the upcoming PC version will have that flexibility but wondering about the AVR/AVP?

If I'm not mistaken, only the first sub output use the LFE signal. The other sub outputs are only for support. Assuming your avr has free sub outputs, you can connect speakers to them.

Maybe this might work if you want to play in Atmos/bitstream on a specific selection of speakers.

 

[anphex]

Do any of the available devices with ART allow you to have speakers which are support only? Meaning no normal output is sent to them. Fairly confident that the upcoming PC version will have that flexibility but wondering about the AVR/AVP?

Is there any benefit to this? Might as well use available speakers.

 

[azzy_mazzy]

Apologies, my question wasn’t clear. I’m asking about having no normal output from the additional speakers at all—they would only provide support. So even if the content is upmixed, those speakers would still function solely as support channels.


I know it’s an unusual question. I’m thinking about rooms where only a 5.1 system can be placed in the correct positions, and adding more speakers would require compromised placement. However, if the additional speakers were used only for support, they could be placed more freely in unconventional locations while still providing the benefits of having extra sources for Dirac to work with.

 

[Oddball]

Apologies, my question wasn’t clear. I’m asking about having no normal output from the additional speakers at all—they would only provide support. So even if the content is upmixed, those speakers would still function solely as support channels.


I know it’s an unusual question. I’m thinking about rooms where only a 5.1 system can be placed in the correct positions, and adding more speakers would require compromised placement. However, if the additional speakers were used only for support, they could be placed more freely in unconventional locations while still providing the benefits of having extra sources for Dirac to work with.

If you are upmixing than you get output from all speakers in your ART profile. ART will follow the signal, including the upmixing you assign. If you don't want to upmix 5.1 then can place additional speakers such as 7.x4 and use them as support.

Not sure what is the benefit though - if you need more support all you need is more subs, not some limited support silent speakers.

 

[azzy_mazzy]

If I'm not mistaken, only the first sub output use the LFE signal. The other sub outputs are only for support. Assuming your avr has free sub outputs, you can connect speakers to them.

Very interesting info thanks.

 

[azzy_mazzy]

if you need more support all you need is more subs, not some limited support silent speakers.

you can “only” have 3 extra subwoofers on denon AVRs, not familiar enough with the other AVP. its same idea.

 

[Oddball]

you can “only” have 3 extra subwoofers on denon AVRs, not familiar enough with the other AVP. its same idea.

You have 4 subs on H series. And not sure why people keep saying that only one of them is LFE and others are support. That is a complete confusion and might have come from Dirac and some that did not know how to interpret their message. Each of 4 subs is supporting equally (albeit according to their capabilities) to produce LFE channel and supporting sub channel to other speakers.

I have 4 relatively big subs and 9 bed channel speakers that can go down to 30-50hz with quite a bit of SPL. ART is pretty much disregarding bed channels and plays all subs up to 100hz or so where transition begins. Obviously no need to support levels below that. Spread is tight, graphs are right and it sounds less congested than ever before. My big speakers are still good for their SPL, so not entirely a waste of money. But they are not needed for support in sub 100hz range though.

 

[TimoJ]

And not sure why people keep saying that only one of them is LFE and others are support.

Because only one sub is LFE and others support it.

 

[Oddball]

Because only one sub is LFE and others support it.

With all respect TimoJ, this is a completely wrong answer.

 

[Capsa]

If I place my second subwoofer in a separate group and disable its support on sub1/LFE, the LFE channel does not play through sub 2.
I personally conclude that subs 2/3/4 are only "supports objets" (or not if you want) of the other groups, they also doesn't have a target curve.

 

[Oddball]

If I place my second subwoofer in a separate group and disable its support on sub1/LFE, the LFE channel does not play through sub 2.
I personally conclude that subs 2/3/4 are only "supports objets" (or not if you want) of the other groups, they also doesn't have a target curve.

Right - you can do all kinds of settings in ART. Some of them at your own peril, like the one you were referring to. Separating subs in different groups is entirely different matter, and even then you want to cross-support them. What you just described is entirely irrational.

There is a big fat thread right here that will give you a right answer if you are willing to digest it. Your understanding of ART should grow as you go through the thread that was meant as support to new ART users/members, or ones that just need help understanding how it really works.

 

[EWL5]

With all respect TimoJ, this is a completely wrong answer.

I think Timoj is right as I've read the same thing from the big Dirac thread over at AVS. Not only that, I think there is a preference for Sub1's timing (LFE) to more or less match the center channel. Dirac hasn't explained why the center channel is the lucky one but at least it is a basis as opposed to none.