Yes I use the same bass target curve for speakers and LFE.
Correct!
This is what I do
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Active Room Treatment (ART) by Dirac
- Thread starter Flak
- Start date
thanks
I followed the link and used it for my measurements. It worked fine
But the last step about checking AVR trims caused an issue
I'm running a Marantz Cinema 30 and I can't see how to see the trims applied by the filter
With the ART filter active the trims all show 0db
Also the channel trims are not greyed out and I can change them, which I thought should be locked out by ART?
Anyone with Cinema 30 see the same?
Was anyone able to fix the insane amount of pre ringing?
In my case, while everything else has stellar results, quick bass drums have such a bad pre ringing that the kicks even sound reversed. I tried almost all settings (support levels, fsiso range, turning groups on/off), all changed it to a different degree, but the "reverse kick sound" is still there.
In my case, while everything else has stellar results, quick bass drums have such a bad pre ringing that the kicks even sound reversed. I tried almost all settings (support levels, fsiso range, turning groups on/off), all changed it to a different degree, but the "reverse kick sound" is still there.
No_hair_left
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I did a new one where I made the subs +5db hotter then the other speakers in the calibration and added a 6db harman curve to everything and now all of my speakers are in the + range, I never go above -29 on my avr anyway so I'm assuming that's fine? all my other calibrations put the speakers in the minus, is this to account for the headroom?
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Did an ART calibration with 4db Harman curve on all channels
Only subs supporting themselves, no other channels supporting
The predicted response didn't quite match the bass target curve.
Looking at speaker levels the subs were set to -10, -8.5,-9.5,-10
I then changed the curve using the sliders to max 12db curve and reran the calibration. The predicted bass curve was more or less the same and the subs levels didn't change.
Any ideas?
Only subs supporting themselves, no other channels supporting
The predicted response didn't quite match the bass target curve.
Looking at speaker levels the subs were set to -10, -8.5,-9.5,-10
I then changed the curve using the sliders to max 12db curve and reran the calibration. The predicted bass curve was more or less the same and the subs levels didn't change.
Any ideas?
Keith_W
Master Contributor
I have wondered whether that would be audible. It's not actually pre-ringing, it's Dirac ART placing the subwoofer impulse before the main impulse. I know this because I have asked for measurements of the subwoofer impulse alone, and another measurement with ART. If you align the subwoofer impulse (and also paying attention to how the reflections line up), you will see that the "pre-ringing" is actually early sub arrival. EVERY Dirac ART measurement I have seen does this, so I can only assume it's in ART by design.
I honestly don't know if it's a requirement for MIMO that this happens or whether there is something wrong with the ART algorithm. I have tried to read up on MIMO but I found the maths impenetrable even with an AI assistant, and I very simply lack the brains to figure it out.
I have a suspicion that it would be worse if you choose a higher cutoff limit for ART. I believe it is 200Hz, maybe try something lower like 80-100Hz. Please report back with measurements.
I think the Marantz Cinema 30 speaker levels displayed when Dirac filter is active don't actually display the current levels only the original pre calibration levels?
I am not sure if that is the case, have you tried to run the subs fairly hot when doing the sweeps ?
Witch subs are you using and what is the support lvl in the group ?
And how are the subs placed in the room ?
Also, if you use the same calibration but using DLBC instead, how does it look ?
And lastly how many measuring points did you do and how big was the area ?
Yes I run them daily hot. Dirac sets them at or near -10
4 SVS PB 3000's in corners default support 20-150Hz
Wide area 17 measurements
What I have noticed is if I remove support for LFE channel from L&R (FSL 50hz) the curve gets dramatically worse as if the L&R are doing a lot of the heavy lifting
DLBC doesn't have this limitation ( hitting close to +12 curve)although again the sub levels displayed don't change.
Interesting, at the same time i am not surpriced.
The more spread out the speakers are the more has Dirac to work with,
And depending on room dimension and speaker placement LCR support might be needed.
With 4 subs in corners you bassicaly copy/paste the same modes and nulls 4 times.
I would try to spred them out and also change which sub is LFE if needed.
After speaking with the kind Dirac support, we came to the conclusion that the subwoofer placement was critical. Dirac tries its best to fix the room acoustics, but if you are triggering room modes on one side of the room extremely, Dirac can only do so much. I flipped my subwoofers back to front left and rear right, which already comes with a naturally better room mode distribution, and now the pre-ringing is a lot better. What really fixed the pre-ringing was that for whatever reason Dirac decided to use my surround speakers as low as 20 Hz, even though the measurement showed a clear hard roll-off and those speakers should be never touched below that point. Dirac did not care and still tried. So basically the pre-ringing I was hearing was a distortion of my surround speakers. Once I drew the preference curve to match the drop-off of my surround speakers, the results are far better and there is no more reverse sounding kick. The drawback probably is if I am gaming, the overall low-end response of the surround speakers will be lower because now Dirac thinks I am applying a filter and I don't want the speakers to use low-end even though the subwoofers could handle it. Because this way the subwoofers also do not get the low range they are usually getting. Dirac ART is pretty weird in this sense.
No, it's not that simple. The subs will be in different polarity regions of a given mode, so they may counter that mode - at lest if they play in mono. Locating subs in the corners is a useful mode cancelling technique.
I shifted the loudest sub to sub 1.
The 4 subs provide a lot of headroom in my system and shouldn't need any support
I also pre eq'd the subs with the SVS app so all roughly the same
With 4 subs Dirac should easily eliminate any nulls.
I used MSO with DLBC before switching to ART.
It gave me ruler flat response across both front seats pre Dirac so I don't see why Dirac is not managing it.
I know
Kept it simple to point out that moving them around might help.
ART can do wonders but sometimes it needs some help.
ART:s main trick is to lower decay so support is not so much about adding dB as working with the decay.
And since there is only 1 LFE one can loose some output.
But this you already know i guess
Your biggest mistake is you pre eq'd the subs. Just let ART do what it wants instead of trying to give it the answer (make sure you use all 4 SW outputs)!
Pre-eq'ing something makes more sense if you don't have RC or the RC is shoddy (which ART is not).
Sorry I don't agree, if you have plenty of headroom, which I do.
ART measures the subs, it doesn't know what's gone on before so how is it worse?
I just matched the levels and ironed out a couple of humps and bumps with the built in SVS app.
It may not be necessary but it can't hurt?
I have to agree here, looking on support graphs cleary shows non linear target.
But the sum will be straight with very short decay under 150hz.
Decay
Support, see the difference in dB between lfe and support.
2 graphs per pic is me choosing different target curves
LFE - 92dB
Sub2 - 86dB
Sub 3 - 82dB
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Ok. Agree to disagree. You think you know better than ART and this is why some people have issues getting it to work (because they want to do it their way instead of the Dirac way). ART is not traditional RC and folks have to stop treating it that way! It also destroys the whole point of having 4 independent sub-outs on your Cinema 30 if I'm being honest!
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