Active Room Treatment (ART) by Dirac

[JRowland]

Do denon AVRs allow tone controls to function with dirac?

I just searched everywhere for any tone control and there isn’t any available, not greyed out just not there. Denon 4800.

 

[azzy_mazzy]

I just searched everywhere for any tone control and there isn’t any available, not greyed out just not there. Denon 4800.

On my denon 1600H with loudness compensation off you have to press options then down to find it. with audyssey dynamic EQ on only ch level adjust shows up and tone is not there.

 

[JRowland]

On my denon 1600H with loudness compensation off you have to press options then down to find it. with audyssey dynamic EQ on only ch level adjust shows up and tone is not there.

I looked in options and settings, opened everything that could be opened even video settings just because. Pretty sure I remember it when I used Audyssey, never used it but I’ve seen it just not anymore.

 

[middlemarch]

I just searched everywhere for any tone control and there isn’t any available, not greyed out just not there. Denon 4800.

No tone controls with Dirac

 

[middlemarch]

You can sort of achieve some tone control functionality by saving different presets with different Target Curves. Works at a coarse level.

 

[middlemarch]

Actually, when I just want more bass, and I'm upmixing anyway, I just upmix with Auro3D. That provides a pretty good bass boost along with whatever else it does. Makes for a fun listen for a lot of two channel stuff.

 

[Flak]

Dirac ART Meets miniDSP: The Tide16 Goes All-In on Immersive Audio

(May 28, 2026) Dirac and miniDSP are taking aim at one of home theater’s most expensive categories with a processor that’s quickly becoming one of the more interesting value-driven immersive audio products on the market. The Tide16 was already positioned as a serious budget-minded alternative to...

www.avnirvana.com

 

[Nivag123]

Hi Everyone,

i have some additional data from REW Phase align tool to give another view of what i'm describing.

First plot is Phase Align Tool, summing full range L+R. Full range because of bass management, LFE subs used to make the L & R full range. This is scenario 1 with stereo 2.0 content, no issues. Both channels are well aligned, any bass present in both channels (mono bass) sums perfectly.

View attachment 534225


Next, is the scenario of L + LFE sum. Imagine there is a 50 cal sniper rifle going off in the LH channel. And the content is mastered with significant bass on the LH channel, which is bass managed and redirected to LFE subs. And at the same time, there bass content of the 50 cal impact is also on the LFE channel. What happens when both are played simultaneously, how do they sum?

Again, using REW Phase Alignment tool, summing L ch + LFE ch. Instead of the expected Green summation with everything in phase, we get the Red cancellation, due to the 5ms shift on LFE. This is also visible in the phase plot below.

View attachment 534226


Next, i will add a 5ms shift to the LFE channel, same L ch + LFE channel summation. I have highlighted the added 5ms shift in green on the alignment tool controls. We get very nice summation again, when L and LFE plays bass at the same time.

View attachment 534229

Hope this helps illustrate what i mean, and the impact of the 5ms LFE delay issue in REW.

Effectively, it is like running a multiple sub LFE setup, with a known 5ms shift between the subs, instead of time aligning them.

Nobody would accept multi-sub with 5ms delay misalignment. But that is what we are getting with ART now with the 5ms LFE delay.

i recognise that this may not be immediately audible in all setup, but it is very audible in my setup. As mentioned in a previous post, 5ms is half wavelength at 100hz, and we see that strong cancellation centered at 100hz due to this issue.

i hope this also explains why the issue only happens with 0.1 LFE content, and does not happen in stereo 2.0 or even multichannel 5.0/7.0 content.

Hello, i have posted a follow up on this with some additional data comparing my previous measurements on anthem AVM90, how the bass management and LFE measures and interacts.

https://www.avsforum.com/posts/64634748/

Hopefully there's no issues with cross linking.

Thanks for reading.

Gavin

 

[pure]

No tone controls with Dirac

I just searched everywhere for any tone control and there isn’t any available, not greyed out just not there. Denon 4800.

I contacted Marantz regarding the issue where the Tone control is disabled while using Dirac Art, but I did not receive a response.

 

[JRowland]

@mmares056 remember when I was asking about this delay that shows up on the ART impulse response graph?

I was wondering if this (in ART) was based off the initial measurements or if we had any control over it. I remember Joss saying in a video to check the impulse screens when doing your filter design but never understood what it was that I could have control over that would be ART related and not set up related. That was part of the reasoning behind my initial conversation about this a few weeks back. I learned a lot from where the discussion here went but nothing to do with what Dirac sees and how Dirac uses what it sees. Yesterday I was messing around in the laptop and I raised my FS Low on my mains from 30Hz to 40Hz (just to hear what a "safety factor" sounds like again), comparing the 2 presets it did not sound as good and the filters were a lot different. I stacked the impulse responses and lo and behold I had that 4ms early hit on the LFE. I moved the FS Low back to 30Hz but left the other changes I made and then I was back to aligned (.2ms different). This was the first thing I wondered about, do we have any control over this timing? The answer is yes, through the setting parameters we dictate in the filter design screen. I have no idea yet if it matters much or not but at least I found out we have control and I am assuming for now that's why Joss recommended looking at them in the first place which makes me think it does matter.

 

[Capsa]

Hello asr, first post here. I have been using Art for a while now and wanted to raise an issue that I haven’t been able to resolve. My default settings are in the attachments.

It's about the cut off frequency of my front speakers; when I set "f-support low" to 50 Hz ,even though the subwoofers are supporting this speaker group, the speakers still start playing frequencies below 50 Hz. I can see the speakers woofer moving a lot when using a tone generator set to 20–30 Hz.

(To note that all rew measurements were taken with the subwoofers physically switched off, regardless of whether they were enabled as a support in the speaker group or not, and whit only the right front speaker)

Here is art whith 50hz cut off and subwoofer in support ,compared to whitout correction in green:

(At least no frequency boost)


Here, we have in blue art whit the subwoofer support disabled, compared to when it is enabled ( still same cut off at 50hz).

I see that the speakers produce much less sound below 50 Hz when the subs are not set to supports, but in this case, the l-r channel no longer produces low frequencies below 50 Hz.

I'm not sure if this excess of bass below the cut-off frequency it's a user error or a Dirac Art limitation.
Thanks.

 

[mmares056]

@mmares056 remember when I was asking about this delay that shows up on the ART impulse response graph?

View attachment 536241

View attachment 536240

I was wondering if this (in ART) was based off the initial measurements or if we had any control over it. I remember Joss saying in a video to check the impulse screens when doing your filter design but never understood what it was that I could have control over that would be ART related and not set up related. That was part of the reasoning behind my initial conversation about this a few weeks back. I learned a lot from where the discussion here went but nothing to do with what Dirac sees and how Dirac uses what it sees. Yesterday I was messing around in the laptop and I raised my FS Low on my mains from 30Hz to 40Hz (just to hear what a "safety factor" sounds like again), comparing the 2 presets it did not sound as good and the filters were a lot different. I stacked the impulse responses and lo and behold I had that 4ms early hit on the LFE. I moved the FS Low back to 30Hz but left the other changes I made and then I was back to aligned (.2ms different). This was the first thing I wondered about, do we have any control over this timing? The answer is yes, through the setting parameters we dictate in the filter design screen. I have no idea yet if it matters much or not but at least I found out we have control and I am assuming for now that's why Joss recommended looking at them in the first place which makes me think it does matter.

That's an interesting observation. I've wondered about this too. In my experiments trying different FSL parameters the corrected LFE channel impulse doesn't change. It is always 2.1-2.5ms before the other channels (Screenshot attached) However, I have noticed that what does change is the delay number for the measured IR depending on the numbers of measurements, mic height variation, and area listening window coverage used. Sometimes the measured IR starts around 5ms and other times it starts around 19ms (Screenshot attached). Why is this happening I haven't figure it out yet. I'm sure the algo is doing something behind the scenes but I have no idea if it matters either. What I do know though, because I always measure to validate the predicted FR and IR, is that the phase and IR is different for each of the measurement patterns, mic height variations, and number of measurements I use. This seems to validate Dirac's claim that ART uses the averaging of the measurements to linearize the phase and time alignment. Fiddling with ART is fun isn't it?

 

[No_hair_left]

How is everyone calibrating their subs when it comes to this?

What I have been doing is just matching the speakers volumes and adding a +6db harman curve which gives me a left sub -1 / right sub +1 but the subs are never centered, the right one way overpowers the left one.

I then have to go into the svs app and raise the left sub by another +6db and now the bass is pretty much centered, I feel like the +6 harman then +6 on the app is too much boost for a single sub.

The recommendation I see online is to not touch the sub mic gain icon in dirac, leave it at 0 and then use the svs app to raise it +5db over the speakers instead, so if I'm aiming for -30db for the speakers the subs should be -25.

Is that a more accurate way of doing things?

 

[Oddball]

How is everyone calibrating their subs when it comes to this?

What I have been doing is just matching the speakers volumes and adding a +6db harman curve which gives me a left sub -1 / right sub +1 but the subs are never centered, the right one way overpowers the left one.

I then have to go into the svs app and raise the left sub by another +6db and now the bass is pretty much centered, I feel like the +6 harman then +6 on the app is too much boost for a single sub.

The recommendation I see online is to not touch the sub mic gain icon in dirac, leave it at 0 and then use the svs app to raise it +5db over the speakers instead, so if I'm aiming for -30db for the speakers the subs should be -25.

Is that a more accurate way of doing things?

My best bet is that something went wrong during ART calibration. ART should determine the right levels for all subs and they should blend nicely with each other and other speakers - the whole purpose of ART.

So try another calibration and see if the problem persists. The levels should be matched to the extent possible during the phase when you set the mic levels in Dirac. Also, best to not have any settings active in the SVS app and just leave the volume/gain at the place where it would blend with other speakers. I would not recommend to have sub volume/gain at more than 70% as it will need some headroom for the curves. I sometimes use +12dB curve, although that would mostly be with older less bass rich content.

 

[mmares056]

How is everyone calibrating their subs when it comes to this?

What I have been doing is just matching the speakers volumes and adding a +6db harman curve which gives me a left sub -1 / right sub +1 but the subs are never centered, the right one way overpowers the left one.

I then have to go into the svs app and raise the left sub by another +6db and now the bass is pretty much centered, I feel like the +6 harman then +6 on the app is too much boost for a single sub.

The recommendation I see online is to not touch the sub mic gain icon in dirac, leave it at 0 and then use the svs app to raise it +5db over the speakers instead, so if I'm aiming for -30db for the speakers the subs should be -25.

Is that a more accurate way of doing things?

Try following these instructions for setting subs/speaker levels https://mehlau.net/audio/dirac-live-2-mic-speaker-levels/. I employ a +10dB bass rise house curve and to ensure I have enough headroom for ART to hit the target and prevent any clipping, I set the gain on each sub plate amp at 35%, (subs leveled matched), then move the sliders for subs down until subs are 10dB hotter than the speakers and making sure speakers and subs measure 20dB above noise floor. Following this approach I usually need to move the sub sliders down -2dB to -4dB respectively and I end up with -3.5dB for the highest sub negative trim and +3.5dB for the highest speaker positive trim in the AVR. This approach WORKS for me but YMMV.

BTW. I have 4 subs and use the Denon X3800H

 

[Oddball]

Try following these instructions for leveling subs/speaker levels https://mehlau.net/audio/dirac-live-2-mic-speaker-levels/. I employ a +10dB bass rise house curve and to ensure I have enough headroom for ART to hit the target and prevent any clipping, I set the gain on each sub plate amp at 35%, (subs leveled matched), then move the sliders for subs down until subs are 10dB hotter than the speakers and making sure speakers and subs measure 20dB above noise floor. Following this approach I usually need to move the sub sliders down -2dB to -4dB respectively and I end up with -3.5dB for the highest sub negative trim and +3.5dB for the highest speaker positive trim in the AVR. This approach WORKS for me but YMMV.

BTW. I have 4 subs and use the Denon X3800H

Agreed. I would just add that 40db above noise floor is even better. If noise floor is some 35-40dB, that would still not be overly evasive. Especially with low frequencies, having a strong signal above noise floor is helpfull.

 

[mmares056]

Agreed. I would just add that 40db above noise floor is even better. If noise floor is some 35-40dB, that would still not be overly evasive. Especially with low frequencies, having a strong signal above noise floor is helpfull.

100% agree with you that 40dB above noise floor is even better. I aim for overall noise floor of -51dB or slightly higher. When I say making sure speakers and subs measure 20dB above noise floor I'm referring to the -20dB to -30dB on the Mic Gain.

 

[JRowland]

Agreed. I would just add that 40db above noise floor is even better. If noise floor is some 35-40dB, that would still not be overly evasive. Especially with low frequencies, having a strong signal above noise floor is helpfull.

Funny I split the difference between you two and shoot for 30db. I don't like the positive trim gains Dirac imposes on the other speakers to offset boosting the subs though (unlike Audyssey) so I have settled on just slightly louder subs in the measurement set up screen by a db or 2. My amps are pretty sensitive and only need 1.8v to hit the full 400w so I'm not into boosting the preout voltage too much.

 

[Oddball]

100% agree with you that 40dB above noise floor is even better. I aim for overall noise floor of -51dB or slightly higher. When I say making sure speakers and subs measure 20dB above noise floor I'm referring to the -20dB to -30dB on the Mic Gain.
View attachment 536438
View attachment 536439
View attachment 536440

Lol, got you - this should work more than great. I try to keep subs civil during the sweeps as they rattle the room if turned up to high with the sweep signal and while no scientific explanation to that, I try to keep that at bay.

 

[No_hair_left]

Try following these instructions for setting subs/speaker levels https://mehlau.net/audio/dirac-live-2-mic-speaker-levels/. I employ a +10dB bass rise house curve and to ensure I have enough headroom for ART to hit the target and prevent any clipping, I set the gain on each sub plate amp at 35%, (subs leveled matched), then move the sliders for subs down until subs are 10dB hotter than the speakers and making sure speakers and subs measure 20dB above noise floor. Following this approach I usually need to move the sub sliders down -2dB to -4dB respectively and I end up with -3.5dB for the highest sub negative trim and +3.5dB for the highest speaker positive trim in the AVR. This approach WORKS for me but YMMV.

BTW. I have 4 subs and use the Denon X3800H

Do you add any custom curve in dirac after that for the other speakers or do you not need to? I pretty much do what that link says other then making the subs hotter. I set the mic gain to -50 and aim for the speakers to be -29, so I would need the subs to be -19?

In dirac when I add a curve like harman 6db I need to apply it to the speakers and subs.