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Active Room Treatment (ART) by Dirac

I have not used ART but you can see from spectrograms that it is consistently reducing spectral decay in 40-150hz region and reducing variation in peak energy time trace (peak level at any given frequency). It is absolutely working. It is using low frequencies from any speaker/subwoofer in system that is capable to do this.
I know it 100% works. Used it for a long time. Is it using active cancellation by playing an opposing cancellation signal to cancel out frequencies that need cancellation. Or is it simply not playing that signal and instead using designated speakers to play the signal instead from a different location, so a particular resonance is never created in the firstplace.
In the end this is probably a distinction without a difference.
 
Well this is some out of the box thinking - and many thanks for bringing it up. You are absolutely right, it is a completely valid concept and we don't really have a proof of the concept.

What makes me think it is cancelation is the filter graphs that show consistency in output. But if thinking a step beyond, canceling the offending output would be more efficient. But not sure if that is happening right now. Now, it the filters show cancellations as well, they yeah, I am lost as much as anyone else. I have done some independent verifying with REW of what individual channels do, and it did seem consistent to a large part with what ART is doing with filters though.
 
I know it 100% works. Used it for a long time. Is it using active cancellation by playing an opposing cancellation signal to cancel out frequencies that need cancellation. Or is it simply not playing that signal and instead using designated speakers to play the signal instead from a different location, so a particular resonance is never created in the firstplace.
In the end this is probably a distinction without a difference.
Unplug all but 1 speaker and find out!

It's possible that some "audible sound" is being contributed by other speakers, but because the frequencies ART currently operates in are so low, it means those sounds are also rather omnidirectional, and thus not likely to be a problem.

But also, ART is not just "playing left speakers 100Hz sounds from right speaker instead", because that could only improve the "physical relationship" of the speaker to the room (and the speaker to the listener), but wouldn't do anything to "decay the reverb faster". Decay relates to the reflections of already emitted sound and how long those reflections "survive" before becoming irrelevant (every bounce off a surface and meter of air traveled through reduces their energy - as does absorption). ART doesn't remove that "sound energy" from the room, but instead overlays it with more sound energy of the opposite polarity, which effectively cancels it (1 + -1 = 0).

I guess if you go loud enough, the lawnmower will not be a problem at all.
"I can hear the engine buzzing like crazy"
 
Great post. I love it.

But if you can still hear the lawnmower, you might want to take it one notch above that. At least I can safely say that no sound can penetrate my room if I truly don't think it is in order. Not that I use it often, but good to know that I can.
 
...
Take dirac bass control (DLBC) vs ART - we can have identical respons but decay on ART is much lower.
Some users Loves it, others needs to settle in and get used to it etc
...
If frequency responses (phase and magnitude) are identical in the same points of the room, then decays will be identical as well, won't they?
 
If frequency responses (phase and magnitude) are identical in the same points of the room, then decays will be identical as well, won't they?
I think you are mixing too many variables. Some did not have much improvement with ART except for decay. Phase, magnitude, distortion and several others are not what we have been cross-examining here. It just gets too complicated. At least we have some conclusions rather than none.
 
I think you are mixing too many variables. Some did not have much improvement with ART except for decay. Phase, magnitude, distortion and several others are not what we have been cross-examining here. It just gets too complicated. At least we have some conclusions rather than none.
I have no opinion about ART; my point was to correct a wrong understanding of the relation between frequency response and decays:
Take dirac bass control (DLBC) vs ART - we can have identical response but decay on ART is much lower.
 
I have no opinion about ART; my point was to correct a wrong understanding of the relation between frequency response and decays:
That is true based on experience of some members. Some had better FQ response as well but that was relatively marginal.

Not sure if I will get this right, but solid FQ response can be achieved by proper Bass Control EQ, but some of the bass signals will continue to linger in time aka decay to create a "convincing" FQ response (which is a thiny slice in time), but still not work that well in decay aka time domain. ART will take that a notch forward to eliminate decay as much as possible and provide the same FQ response - but using different resources.

Does that make sense?
 
If frequency responses (phase and magnitude) are identical in the same points of the room, then decays will be identical as well, won't they?
My own test says no, it all comes down to how ART calculates i guess.
ART always has shorter decey, how the phase goes differs depending on settings.
But i cant say before hand that "this setting will result like this"

ART
1774733764048.png
And ART again
1774733801602.png


And DLBC
1774733842421.png



And lastly Standard Dirac
1774734065695.png
 
If frequency responses (phase and magnitude) are identical in the same points of the room, then decays will be identical as well, won't they?
Yes, that’s right. If you know both phase and magnitude response, you also know the impulse response (by Fourier transformation), and this will tell you about the decay of the system.
 
I would like to add that I have noticed the number of Mic measurement points and patterns you use cause the phase to differ from 200Hz and up. Speaker time alignment changes slightly too.

See below screenshots for illustration. This is the phase for Front Left with 3 different mic measurement points and patterns for my 3 seat sofa.

9 Mic Positions
L ART Phase_9MicPos.3Seats.jpg


12 Mic Positions
L ART Phase_12MicPos.3Seats.jpg


17 Mic Positions
L ART Phase_17MicPos.3Seats.jpg


And this is ART time alignment for all my speakers with their respective Mic measurement points.

9 Measurement Points
31126 9MicPos.3SeatSofa_All Speakers Impulse Response.png


12 Measurement Points
21026 12MicPos.3SeatSofa_All Speakers Impulse Response.png


17 Measurement Points
All Speakers Inpulse Response_17 Mic Position.3 Seats.jpg
 
If frequency responses (phase and magnitude) are identical in the same points of the room, then decays will be identical as well, won't they?
Short answer - no - they are different performance aspects and are measured differently.

One of the issues with "simple" frequency response measurements, is that they don't seperate out the different aspects of performance - they don't measure what the speaker puts out alone, but conflate it with reflections from the room.... the decay. - They are "in room" , end result measurements - and cannot provide us with any indication of the amount of obfuscation of the signal is caused by the reflections, let alone what boosts (or depressions) of frequency amplitude are due to reflections/decay and nodes/modes, vs what is due to the core anechoic response of the speaker itself.

With ART, we have a mechanism to control the decay - something that otherwise was very difficult, and often very expensive.

However with current tools (such as REW) you can measure the decay, identify the core F/R and seperate it from the decay...
 
Short answer - no - they are different performance aspects and are measured differently.

One of the issues with "simple" frequency response measurements, is that they don't seperate out the different aspects of performance - they don't measure what the speaker puts out alone, but conflate it with reflections from the room.... the decay. - They are "in room" , end result measurements - and cannot provide us with any indication of the amount of obfuscation of the signal is caused by the reflections, let alone what boosts (or depressions) of frequency amplitude are due to reflections/decay and nodes/modes, vs what is due to the core anechoic response of the speaker itself.

With ART, we have a mechanism to control the decay - something that otherwise was very difficult, and often very expensive.

However with current tools (such as REW) you can measure the decay, identify the core F/R and seperate it from the decay...
This is not correct, assuming we consider frequencies up to 150 Hz, which is the case for Dirac ART. This is the modal region, and it is not meaningful to speak about the measured sound at the listening position as the sum of direct and reflected contributions. We have minimal phase in this region. Magnitude and phase together provides the impulse response - this is basic Fourier theory - which again determines the decay.

EDIT: Come to think of it, there is no restriction to lower frequencies. If two systems measure the same transfer function (magnitude and phase response), they have the same impulse response, and thereby the same decay.
 
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This is not correct, assuming we consider frequencies up to 150 Hz, which is the case for Dirac ART. This is the modal region, and it is not meaningful to speak about the measured sound at the listening position as the sum of direct and reflected contributions. We have minimal phase in this region. Magnitude and phase together provides the impulse response - this is basic Fourier theory - which again determines the decay.

EDIT: Come to think of it, there is no restriction to lower frequencies. If two systems measure the same transfer function (magnitude and phase response), they have the same impulse response, and thereby the same decay.
If you measure anechoically - then there is no decay (other than mechanical limitations of the driver/speaker system, but these are orders of magnitude lower than the standard in room issue)...

The decay is primarily caused by reflections, and those reflections are what causes the modes... without reflection, no modes/nodes/nulls...
When the timing of the reflected wave has wave peaks coinciding with those of the original sound from the speaker (or with reflection... as it is not a single reflection but can be bouncing back and forth) - then we have a mode/node, a peak in amplitude at that geographic location.

This is also dependent on room size/proportions which will be related to both frequency and distance, and the timing as well as geo location of the speaker will also impact on this...

In an anechoic or open air environment, this does not happen... obviously - as there are no reflections

But yes phase/timing will definitely have an impact - it will move the nodes/nulls within the space
 
If you measure anechoically - then there is no decay (other than mechanical limitations of the driver/speaker system, but these are orders of magnitude lower than the standard in room issue)...

The decay is primarily caused by reflections, and those reflections are what causes the modes... without reflection, no modes/nodes/nulls...
When the timing of the reflected wave has wave peaks coinciding with those of the original sound from the speaker (or with reflection... as it is not a single reflection but can be bouncing back and forth) - then we have a mode/node, a peak in amplitude at that geographic location.

This is also dependent on room size/proportions which will be related to both frequency and distance, and the timing as well as geo location of the speaker will also impact on this...

In an anechoic or open air environment, this does not happen... obviously - as there are no reflections

But yes phase/timing will definitely have an impact - it will move the nodes/nulls within the space
I’m not sure what you are trying to say with this. We were talking about decay times of the response of the system. What I’m saying is that if we know the phase and magnitude response of the system in a location - or equivalently the impulse response - then we also know how fast sound decays at that location. No additional information is needed - about room modes or anything else.

By the way, what you say about phase and timing having an impact on the location of the nodes in the room is wrong. Timing will not move nodes. The standing wave patterns are a property of the room, not of any sources you put in it. (Of course, the frequency response depends on the location of the sources and mic, but that is another matter.)
 
I would like to add that I have noticed the number of Mic measurement points and patterns you use cause the phase to differ from 200Hz and up. Speaker time alignment changes slightly too.

See below screenshots for illustration. This is the phase for Front Left with 3 different mic measurement points and patterns for my 3 seat sofa.

9 Mic Positions
View attachment 521014

12 Mic Positions
View attachment 521015

17 Mic Positions
View attachment 521016

And this is ART time alignment for all my speakers with their respective Mic measurement points.

9 Measurement Points
View attachment 521017

12 Measurement Points
View attachment 521018

17 Measurement Points
View attachment 521019
Pretty consistent with my experience. Even 2 different 9 position calibration runs turn a bit different, even though I try to keep them consistent in terms of positioning. But difficult to control that within +/- 1 cm, so there it is. I don't really think about it. Just ultimately choose the one that sounds best (as they all measure good and close).
 
Hi guys, I have a question and wondering if anyone could help. I already took off for for extended Easter holiday trip and this question just keeps popping up in my head while can't really check anything in my system for like next 10 days. Wanted to check myself before the trip by unfortunately too many things had to take priority.

There is a another thread on the forum:


where there is active discussion about stereo bass being (much) better than mono - for 2 ch listening. In short, the way AVR/AVP would summon below crossover bass for LR for bass management with subs would alter the original signal and make it worse. There seem to be graphs to support that.

Now my question is how does that really work on D&M gear with ART engaged? Without ART it would seem that AVR would engage subs in 2ch mode if that option was checked in the audio menu, which would likely result is the mono summoning. But with ART, would ART do its usual thing in 2ch mode even if the option to use subs was not checked in AVR/AVP 2 channel bass management option (or even if checked would it just disregard it)? I.e. would it use ART settings and to the extent subs and other channels support LR, create a "virtual" LR channel spread between all these speakers?

I am not a big 2ch listener. Mostly movies/shows and multi-channel music, but from my recollection the second scenario is how ART handles 2ch signal, so there is no summoning to mono. However, I might be wrong, or there might be even a different scenario that I did not think of.

Many thanks for your help in advance.
 
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Hi guys, I have a question and wondering if anyone could help. I already took off for for extended Easter holiday trip and this question just keeps popping up in my head while can't really check anything in my system for like next 10 days. Wanted to check myself before the trip by unfortunately too many things had to take priority.

There is a another thread on the forum:


where there is active discussion about stereo bass being (much) better than mono - for 2 ch listening. In short, the way AVR/AVP would summon below crossover bass for LR for bass management with subs would alter the original signal and make it worse. There seem to be graphs to support that.

Now my question is how does that really work on D&M gear with ART engaged? Without ART it would seem that AVR would engage subs in 2ch mode if that option was checked in the audio menu, which would likely result is the mono summoning. But with ART, would ART do its usual thing in 2ch mode even if the option to use subs was not checked in AVR/AVP 2 channel bass management option (or even if checked would it just disregard it)? I.e. would it use ART settings and to the extent subs and other channels support LR, create a "virtual" LR channel spread between all these speakers?

I am not a big 2ch listener. Mostly movies/shows and multi-channel music, but from my recollection the second scenario is how ART handles 2ch signal, so there is no summoning to mono. However, I might be wrong, or there might be even a different scenario that I did not think of.

Many thanks for your help in advance.

Can you clarify the part about telling the AVR there are no subs? I listen to a lot of 2 channel but my system configuration in the Denon speaker set up screen is 5.3.0 so I have never set that as 2.0 which sounds like what you are asking about. ART does play sounds from all the speakers in 2 channel mode in my set up, low frequency sounds from everything but the mains. I've tried some intentional directional set ups with ART using support settings to make it like the directional bass I used with Audyssey. There is a different feel and I get the envelopment on the Billie Eilish "I didn't change my number" song that Thomas Lund has mentioned in the bass and subwoofer thread https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/bass-and-subwoofers.51589/post-2008100 as an easy track to feel what it is all about. I get better envelopment when I let ART do it's thing without me trying to force directionality myself. Better bass all around as well, more impact. The interesting thing that I have noticed is when I set my FS Low to "safe" levels and let the subs do all the down low work I do not get the envelopment that I do when I let my mains come in between 40 and 60Hz by setiing my FS Low low. That is also the same thing I noticed in Audyssey when I used any crossover above 60Hz.

Enjoy your Holiday!
 

I have a question about this video, why does he need to take 7 different measurements when setting the device as he only need to have the sound corrected for a single position for his single listening position in his chair?
 
Can you clarify the part about telling the AVR there are no subs? I listen to a lot of 2 channel but my system configuration in the Denon speaker set up screen is 5.3.0 so I have never set that as 2.0 which sounds like what you are asking about. ART does play sounds from all the speakers in 2 channel mode in my set up, low frequency sounds from everything but the mains. I've tried some intentional directional set ups with ART using support settings to make it like the directional bass I used with Audyssey. There is a different feel and I get the envelopment on the Billie Eilish "I didn't change my number" song that Thomas Lund has mentioned in the bass and subwoofer thread https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/bass-and-subwoofers.51589/post-2008100 as an easy track to feel what it is all about. I get better envelopment when I let ART do it's thing without me trying to force directionality myself. Better bass all around as well, more impact. The interesting thing that I have noticed is when I set my FS Low to "safe" levels and let the subs do all the down low work I do not get the envelopment that I do when I let my mains come in between 40 and 60Hz by setiing my FS Low low. That is also the same thing I noticed in Audyssey when I used any crossover above 60Hz.

Enjoy your Holiday!
Many thanks - this covers lots of it, and do get the point about having more direction/envelopment with FS Low being set lower. I just keep it high for convenience. Only 6 presets (5 of which I really use as that's the max on recall presets button) all of which are filled with same FS low/high and grouping, but from +2dB low shelf to +12dB low shelf. If there was more, would have more variety.

Just additional question is if you have any upmixer active or ART does its usual thing even if they are not engaged? One way or another it is probably safe to say that in your setup (and similar D&M ART setups) there is no mono summoning.

I did ask what happens in 2.x setup (aka dedicated setup for 2-channel uploaded on one of the slots), but I guess did not ask precisely enough. In that scenario there would be no other channels to support the LR but subs, but I would imagine result would be the same, i.e. ART supporting LR with subs without mono summoning.

I do agree with you that with ART it is probably better to rely on all ART resources one has than just forcing directionality. I recall early on with ART I tried 2-channel setup with just 2 front subs (that are symmetrically located bening LR speakers), but did not sound nearly as convincing or smooth as with full 9.4.4 setup. I made a note in the Envelopment threat that having fully directional setup with LR and 2 or 4 co-located is a real PITA as it would have to be either one in a million room or some really heavy room treatment to deal with FQ response and decay. But at the end this is really depending on the room.
 
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