• Welcome to ASR. There are many reviews of audio hardware and expert members to help answer your questions. Click here to have your audio equipment measured for free!

Active Room Treatment (ART) by Dirac

My listening is over 90% music, and we're not really into action movies, a lot of the stuff we watch, when we do, are older movies in mono or stereo. (I know, so why a 9.4.6 system, you ask). I do love exploring Atmos music, so that's my focus.

Fire up the song "Boom" by Tiesto and Sevenn, it sends low content around the room and is a lot of fun to listen to. Supposedly it sends full content to the ceiling (I don't have ceiling or heights hence supposedly), try removing the subs from supporting and save that as a preset and jam away. I'd imagine that will answer your question, if it does I'm a little curious about the ceiling as a music only user so I'd like to hear your thoughts after the test.
 
I ordered it, thanks for the suggestion!
For Atmos music, most of the mixes I've heard are fairly subdued and there really isn't that much content in the heights. That said, if you want to give your 9.4.6 system a serious workout, I highly recommend the 4K UHD Blu-ray of Hans Zimmer: Live in Prague. It's the first thing I tried with my ART calibration. I was only intending to listen a few moments to test things out, but I sat through the entire concert at reference volume. :cool:

 
With two subs it can make a huge difference.
But with four i would say we reach 100% coverage for ART
More accurately - with four bass capable speakers (whether sub or full range) we reach 100% coverage for ART - within their frequency range capabilities

Once you have 4 speakers covering any part of the 20Hz-150Hz range, ART can do 99%+ of what it should be able to do.

Which means that Subs in systems that have full range base layer speakers - become almost optional.

I say almost, as typically full range speakers tend to run out of steam at around 40Hz... and substantial subs are needed to take the range down to a true 20Hz... basically you need subs that can cleanly go down to and F3 of 15Hz to ensure that you achieve the ART magic down to 20Hz

My 2 subs allow my setup to extend down to around 26Hz (optimistically) but really clean decay control tends to run out around 40Hz - which is where the full rangers start to run out of puff....
 
In all the ART threads I've read, the LFE channel tries to be as aligned with the center channel as much as possible.

I understand not all setups can be done this way but a physical placement similar to this would help ART better than a corner.
An alternative setup for him would be "stereo SWs" near the front channels and having the rears be in the corners.
In the Dolby and DTS theatre specifications, (from which all our Home Theatres derive!) - the LFE is always placed centrally behind the acoustically transparent cinema screen....

So for the parts of the LFE range that are "directional" (80Hz to 120Hz) - the default surround mixes would assume that LFE is front and center.

How much of a difference it makes pragmatically in real life, is a relevant question, but in theoretical terms, the LFE should be front and center
 
In the Dolby and DTS theatre specifications, (from which all our Home Theatres derive!) - the LFE is always placed centrally behind the acoustically transparent cinema screen....

So for the parts of the LFE range that are "directional" (80Hz to 120Hz) - the default surround mixes would assume that LFE is front and center.

How much of a difference it makes pragmatically in real life, is a relevant question, but in theoretical terms, the LFE should be front and center
Right, but there are surround subs as well that are specd for cinemas. Those are 40hz (-6db) so a bit of a slack to 30-something for the fronts. Dolby says that these have to be separate from front (LFE) subs though. So apparently they have been thinking about spatial effect.

What is in the mix is not really up to Dolby. The hope is that for home mix studios don't use the theater mix and branch out from the master that should supposedly have all the spatial clues in the bass - if anyone bothered to put them there. Many HTs nowadays far surpass the audio capabilities of the commercial cinemas. But yeah - or screens are still small compared to the proper theater, and will probably never catch up in that area.
 
I realized when I posted that that only I can really answer the question. But I'm feeling lazy, so there's that. Just wondered if anyone else has done the homework and come to a conclusion.

I keep thinking in a few years someone will have written "The Definitive Guide to Dirac Art" and all the possible permutations will have been evaluated and "The One True Way" defined that we can all just follow. But it's early days. I just don't feel like going down the Evo rabbit hole again, that just got so exhausting.
I personally think the "One True Way" is to get a basic understanding where to put your measurement mic, do the minimum of measurements to access ART, leave everything at default, hit calculate, transfer the filter, not thinking too much into it and call it a day. For most people this would honestly be the best and least time consuming option. The results should be good enough for an automated system (exceptionally good in my opinion aside from my personal preference on the base target curve).

Obviously that is not enough for hometheater enthusiasts who always feel it can sound be better (unfortunately me). Sometimes we have to deal with lots of variables that has an effect on the final result we are hearing like speaker model/type, speaker/subwoofer count, number of cross-terms available, support level + f-support low + f-support high for each group configured, enabling/disabling support for other groups, position of the speakers in the room, room dimensions + room construction (thickness of the walls, materials used, etc.) that creates all sorts of issues that we need to understand, seating position, passive treatments implemented or generally the placement of your furnitures, personal preference for bass, generally prefered listening levels, your own expectation what perfect bass should even sound like can be different, generally psychoacoustics, etc..

A personal example: Science suggest to position 2 subs on the front wall and 2 subs on the backwall for a really good bass performance in small rooms. ART does a great job to optimize for this configuration. I have 4 subwoofers but they perform subjectively better if I leave all of them on the front wall. I have much better "cinematic" bass that way. Maybe the look of having 4 subwoofers in front of me plays a role aswell, who knows.

Another personal example: Since I was a child my right ear is slightly more sensitive or my left ear is slightly less sensitive to hearing bass around 38-43hz. That creates a little imbalance at certain volumes between my left and right hearing. Over the years I have found a fix by slightly adjusting the target curve in that range. My brain starts to focus on other bass frequencies which I prefer. Obviously no guide can take this into account as it is personal, so is the room.

I really wish a definitive guide is possible. But I think it will either become a giant complex mass of information that will give you headaches (put you in a rabbit hole) or it will be something more easily digestible but will leave out too many important variables (oversimplification).

I don't see a way out of experimenting with different configurations, both physical and digital (the ART configuration itself) to get the best result possible.
 
Right, but there are surround subs as well that are specd for cinemas. Those are 40hz (-6db) so a bit of a slack to 30-something for the fronts. Dolby says that these have to be separate from front (LFE) subs though. So apparently they have been thinking about spatial effect.

What is in the mix is not really up to Dolby. The hope is that for home mix studios don't use the theater mix and branch out from the master that should supposedly have all the spatial clues in the bass - if anyone bothered to put them there. Many HTs nowadays far surpass the audio capabilities of the commercial cinemas. But yeah - or screens are still small compared to the proper theater, and will probably never catch up in that area.
Not only the screen size but I also think the size of the room plays a huge role. I can have much more bass compared to the commercial cinema in my city. But the way everything sounds in a huge cinema room is a blessing for my ears. I accepted that I can't replicate that sound or is it diffusion in my small theater room.
 
Thanks, I just recently ran across that. Quite a tome, needs to be studied several times slowly.

I've already come across one suggestion related to my previous questions. It's a recommendation to not have subs support height speakers if they can't do 80Hz. Mine stretch to make 100, more realistically 110hz. They then suggest using adjacent base level speakers to support the heights. Will give this a try.
 
Thanks, I just recently ran across that. Quite a tome, needs to be studied several times slowly.

I've already come across one suggestion related to my previous questions. It's a recommendation to not have subs support height speakers if they can't do 80Hz. Mine stretch to make 100, more realistically 110hz. They then suggest using adjacent base level speakers to support the heights. Will give this a try.
I can say with high (-est) level of confidence that such recommendation is absolutely wrong unless your base level speakers are something like this:


This whole idea comes from Trinnov and Storm advance bass routing, which might have been somewhat valid at older times. And you will completely loose signal below what your adjacent speakers can support. With ART and Waveforming, this remains anique in both setups. Theoretically, you could send some of the "localizable" signal to adjacent capable speakers and dedicate support range as e.g. 80-150hz, and then support with subs at e.g. 20-80hz which in the old world would be double crossover scenario. I have not tried, but given my experience with other channels and speakers that go to 30hz in the room - this is a fool's game.

There was obviously a lot of effort put in the "guide", but it remains a collection of bits and pieces that were obviously put together with help of AI - which explains the volume of data. I must admit I will never go through the whole thing as too busy, but my initial reaction is that there is no summary or high level guidelines. Just one dune of sand after another...

Perhaps someone with interest could engage some professional level AI to provide a summary?
 
There was obviously a lot of effort put in the "guide", but it remains a collection of bits and pieces that were obviously put together with help of AI - which explains the volume of data. I must admit I will never go through the whole thing as too busy, but my initial reaction is that there is no summary or high level guidelines. Just one dune of sand after another...
My sense is the guide is a series of notes collected over many years (many prior to widespread use of AI). Many of the source videos and forum discussions are cited.
 
As we all know, internet is a source of information. How reliable and actionable depends on us. Critical thinking and taking internet info with a grain of salt is probably a good practice. Not to be called a hypocrite, applies to my posts as well :facepalm:
 
Is there a consensus yet on whether it makes sense to have all the subs support all the overhead channels? I doubt very much, if any, bass content is being sent to them. And if I remove sub support to those channels I free up 24 cross terms that could be used for my base channels. Would I gain much by increasing the amount of support among the base channels?
It seems that the no bass is sent to overhead speakers idea may be left over from times before Atmos. There are no bass limitations to any speaker. If using bass management bass will be redirected to subwoofers just like any speaker. And yes there are times, in some movies, some of the time, that a lot of bass is sent to Atmos speakers.
 
Right, but there are surround subs as well that are specd for cinemas. Those are 40hz (-6db) so a bit of a slack to 30-something for the fronts. Dolby says that these have to be separate from front (LFE) subs though. So apparently they have been thinking about spatial effect.

What is in the mix is not really up to Dolby. The hope is that for home mix studios don't use the theater mix and branch out from the master that should supposedly have all the spatial clues in the bass - if anyone bothered to put them there. Many HTs nowadays far surpass the audio capabilities of the commercial cinemas. But yeah - or screens are still small compared to the proper theater, and will probably never catch up in that area.
Yes the surround subs are associated with their respective surround channels - so effectively, they extend the f/r of the surrounds making them into full range.

The intent is for all the base layer channels to be full range (achieved often through the use of surround subs) - in addition to the LFE - which is front and center.

How that then developed into the pragmatic reality we have had for the subsequent 30 years+ is a different issue...

And how some movies have been mixed, for the pragmatic reality, rather than the theoretical ideal.... (and vice versa) - complicates things further!
 
Yes the surround subs are associated with their respective surround channels - so effectively, they extend the f/r of the surrounds making them into full range.

The intent is for all the base layer channels to be full range (achieved often through the use of surround subs) - in addition to the LFE - which is front and center.

How that then developed into the pragmatic reality we have had for the subsequent 30 years+ is a different issue...

And how some movies have been mixed, for the pragmatic reality, rather than the theoretical ideal.... (and vice versa) - complicates things further!
And here is a screenshot from the Dolby Atmos Guide (for commercial atmos setups) regarding commercial theaters. Surrounds “must support full range signals” and if the speakers are bass limited surround subs are to be used. LFE subs are seperate and up front behind the screen. This is from their issue 5 from October 2025.

“ Surround Subwoofers
Dolby Atmos auditoriums must support playback of full-range surround signals. Surround speakers with limited bass are
acceptable if surround subwoofers and bass management are used. Dolby Atmos cinema processors support bass-
management signal processing. For practical installations, this is the most common approach. When using bass
management, a minimum of two dedicated surround subwoofers are required and the surround subwoofers must meet the
requirements described in this section. Subwoofers assigned as LFE cannot be used for surround speaker bass management.”
IMG_2666.png
 
The whole suite of Dolby specs dates to last century. LFE was a compromise as it could not be expected from the cinemas or homes to have full range speakers. So the subs were born to carry .1 load. The bad thing about it was that LFE was stretched to 120hz instead of 80hz which was always THX recommendation. So Dolby went a bit more accomodating on that point.

The whole game is when does +10dB boost end. Should it be 80hz or 120hz? Or should it actually be that the same boost could be coded into separate channels so when summoned with bass management they would produce the same effect, or even better emphasizing the "lead" channel with higher dB?

This was actually a quite significant issue, at least theoretically before ART. ART really breaks the crossover concept so this no longer such a concern. But bad bass mix will continue to be bad with ART, probably a bit better, as ART is just reproducing what other people have mixed.
 
Last edited:
And here is a screenshot from the Dolby Atmos Guide (for commercial atmos setups) regarding commercial theaters. Surrounds “must support full range signals” and if the speakers are bass limited surround subs are to be used. LFE subs are seperate and up front behind the screen. This is from their issue 5 from October 2025.

“ Surround Subwoofers
Dolby Atmos auditoriums must support playback of full-range surround signals. Surround speakers with limited bass are
acceptable if surround subwoofers and bass management are used. Dolby Atmos cinema processors support bass-
management signal processing. For practical installations, this is the most common approach. When using bass
management, a minimum of two dedicated surround subwoofers are required and the surround subwoofers must meet the
requirements described in this section. Subwoofers assigned as LFE cannot be used for surround speaker bass management.”
View attachment 514038
Did you also check what they list as the required frequency response for the “surround subs”? It’s 40-120 Hz, and in the worst case it’s allowed to be -6dB at 40Hz. That’s nowhere near what a home cinema enthusiast would consider a true subwoofer.

Meanwhile, people complain about ART’s 20Hz limit, which is already a full octave lower than those Dolby specifications.
 
Last edited:
Did you also check what they list as the required frequency response for the “surround subs”? It’s 40-120 Hz, and in the worst case it’s allowed to be -6dB at 40Hz. That’s nowhere near what a home cinema enthusiast would consider a true subwoofer.

Meanwhile, people complain about ART’s 20Hz limit, which is already a full octave lower than those Dolby specifications.
Yes. This was mainly as a counter to surrounds/atmos do not receive full frequency. In commercial theaters they use the word "must" be full range, which they define as 40hz. I think it is interesting that theaters want 40hz and surrounds crossed over to surround subs to get there, if the surround speakers don't go that low. It flies a bit in the face of convention it seems of the oft recommended 80hz crossovers (or even higher.
 
Finally got around to doing REW measurements with DiracART. My knowledge is very rudimentary; these are just single-point measurements.

Here are the results in my living room:
no DSP.jpg


DiracART.jpg


I think the bump between 25 and 50 Hz after DiracART calibration is due to the target curve. Much more than relying on the Dirac measurements, I let my hearing guide me to some extent in the 20-100 Hz range and gradually adjusted my target curves. The actual boost in the 20-100 Hz range (I prefer about +5 dB for music) makes a big difference to me, and even with the two small SVS subwoofers it's a huge difference whether I let the target curve roll off gently below 30 Hz (my preference) or steeply.

That's about it. Maybe I'll add two subwoofers to the rear speakers for Black Friday. I wonder if that would make a significant improvement?!
 
Back
Top Bottom