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Active Room Treatment (ART) by Dirac

What do you guys think about this video? It was linked by a member in another thread. I have some reservations, but then I am the oddball :facepalm:

I watched this video and I didn't notice anything I disagreed with.

I've tried 4 subwoofers in one group and 2 separate groups and neither worked for me. I did some post EQ measurements and OCA's A1 Evo Acoustix managed to EQ my subwoofers to my target curve and ART didn't.

I might try what that guy did in the video, integrating subs into my surrounds and I'm not sure how they will sum to the other subs though.
 
I watched this video and I didn't notice anything I disagreed with.

I've tried 4 subwoofers in one group and 2 separate groups and neither worked for me. I did some post EQ measurements and OCA's A1 Evo Acoustix managed to EQ my subwoofers to my target curve and ART didn't.

I might try what that guy did in the video, integrating subs into my surrounds and I'm not sure how they will sum to the other subs though.
Interesting. So what was better? Target curve tracking? What about decay?
 
Interesting. So what was better? Target curve tracking? What about decay?
I only checked Target Curve tracking with RTA and MMM.

I could tell that the decay times were better with ART by how it sounded but I don't have RT60 or decay differences based on measurements to back that up.
 
Interesting. So what was better? Target curve tracking? What about decay?
I said to myself something I've seen in a few Dirac ART threads: "ART has killed my bass" and based on the post EQ measurements, I think that might be true for my system and I realise I have more experimenting to do.
 
I only checked Target Curve tracking with RTA and MMM.

I could tell that the decay times were better with ART by how it sounded but I don't have RT60 or decay differences based on measurements to back that up.
I think we all need to be aware of the past. We all were drowning in "wet" bass. What is the balance of the wet vs. dry is individual. So one might rightfully so call ART too dry even with +12dB curve. Content we listen to was mastered without ART, so what ART does in not really what was intended anyway. But IMO any other traditional solution is not really doing us a favour.

As far as the Mad Audio video, the guy is pretty cryptic. I have actually no idea of what he did in settings or how it measured up. Nor what he is using or what are the limits of his equipment. I guess he would want me to do additional work, which will obviously not happen. He seemed to promote the small B subs though, so there is a conflict of interest right there. All Youtubers and bigger sites have to live off something. We are on a forum where this seems to not matter, which is great.

As to the fundamentals of Mad Audio claims - I can't follow that. He apparently claims that directional bass seemed to get so much better with his implementation? Also strange (or perhaps intentionally appropriate) that he chose the Frankenstein movie to test his experiment of combining parts that are traditionally separated.

That goes against my own experience where I have 4 equal subs and large (50-150hz) supporting speakers and based on the filters, ART always chooses the support of the subs in the low end range. This will still result in directivity of the bass if encoded in specific channels (not LFE), but will not provide the same air pressure clue as it would in the full range system without any bass management for the mains (would need to be reference or so level). ART is not designed to do that, so I wonder what is that guy hearing. Appreciate that every room and every system is different. He seems to have pretty good gear and the room, but not sufficient disclosure for advanced members.
 
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What do you guys think about this video? It was linked by a member in another thread. I have some reservations, but then I am the oddball :facepalm:


I personally would have liked to see/hear his comparison of using the sub DSP to pair them to the surrounds ahead of ART (just like he did) to separating each of those Buchardts into their own groups and assigning them (Buchardts) to support only the surround next to it. To me it seems as if would be the same thing with less tinkering. You would able to then assign the sub to support other things and the mids from the surrounds to be independent (i.e. not having to support the same things as the sub) vs. how he did it he will only have "one channel" to use as support. Probably not much difference there unless the room dictates it but you limit that option by combining them up front like he did.
 
I think we all need to be aware of the past. We all were drowning in "wet" bass. What is the balance of the wet vs. dry is individual. So one might rightfully so call ART too dry even with +12dB curve. Content we listen to was mastered without ART, so what ART does in not really what was intended anyway. But IMO any other traditional solution is not really doing us a favour.

As far as the Mad Audio video, the guy is pretty cryptic. I have actually no idea of what he did in settings or how it measured up. Nor what he is using or what are the limits of his equipment. I guess he would want me to do additional work, which will obviously not happen. He seemed to promote the small B subs though, so there is a conflict of interest right there. All Youtubers and bigger sites have to live off something. We are on a forum where this seems to not matter, which is great.

As to the fundamentals of Mad Audio claims - I can't follow that. He apparently claims that directional bass seemed to get so much better with his implementation? Also strange (or perhaps intentionally appropriate) that he chose the Frankenstein movie to test his experiment of combining parts that are traditionally separated.

That goes against my own experience where I have 4 equal subs and large (50-150hz) supporting speakers and based on the filters, ART always chooses the support of the subs in the low end range. This will still result in directivity of the bass if encoded in specific channels (not LFE), but will not provide the same air pressure clue as it would in the full range system without any bass management for the mains (would need to be reference or so level). ART is not designed to do that, so I wonder what is that guy hearing. Appreciate that every room and every system is different. He seems to have pretty good gear and the room, but not sufficient disclosure for advanced members.
I can now see where you are coming from.

I experienced the same thing he did, 4 subs in one group are better than 2 separate groups.

I'm in the same situation as him, I have 2 different types of subwoofers, I have 2 SVS SB 1000 Classics and 2 SVS 3000 Micros.

In my last calibration, I had the SB1000s in the middle of my side walls and the 3000 Micros in the front corners and each type of sub type had a very similar frequency response.

I've moved one of the SB1000s to the front corner and I'm going to do another A1 Acoustix and Dirac calibration this weekend.

I'm planning on being more organised this time with my pre and post EQ measurements and I'll post my results in this thread.

If I have the time, I might try to see what happens if I use MSO someway and I understand that will potentially interfere with what ART does.
 
I have not watch the vid so i have no idea on what he is proposing.
But what i can tell is that ART aint straight forward and as user you need to tinker around a bit.
Even if Art does a Great job it is still room and speaker dependent, and then ad the users taste.


Personaly i am as happy as one can be but out of curiosity i will ad low end support to my surrounds.
 
I have not watch the vid so i have no idea on what he is proposing.
But what i can tell is that ART aint straight forward and as user you need to tinker around a bit.
Even if Art does a Great job it is still room and speaker dependent, and then ad the users taste.


Personaly i am as happy as one can be but out of curiosity i will ad low end support to my surrounds.

I'm as happy as can be as well and have a 3rd subwoofer on its way to support my surrounds :-)
 
I can now see where you are coming from.

I experienced the same thing he did, 4 subs in one group are better than 2 separate groups.

I'm in the same situation as him, I have 2 different types of subwoofers, I have 2 SVS SB 1000 Classics and 2 SVS 3000 Micros.

In my last calibration, I had the SB1000s in the middle of my side walls and the 3000 Micros in the front corners and each type of sub type had a very similar frequency response.

I've moved one of the SB1000s to the front corner and I'm going to do another A1 Acoustix and Dirac calibration this weekend.

I'm planning on being more organised this time with my pre and post EQ measurements and I'll post my results in this thread.

If I have the time, I might try to see what happens if I use MSO someway and I understand that will potentially interfere with what ART does.
We are all looking forward to your experiment. But probably you should not go too far in comparison. If comparing ART, you should keep the subs in the same location and then note what was the difference otherwise. Location is really important to the comparison.

Your subs might not be that far off in performance - will depend on position. Also perhaps you would want to have your SB's in the front and Micros in the back, hopefully closer to the MLP. That was a setup that traditionally was preferred and in some recent Dirac interviews was confirmed as preferred.
 
Well, no Windows in my house for years except the ones on the wall. Used it only for MultiEQ-X and suffered every time.
I've never had an issue with MultEQ-X - Dirac is another issue. Even attaching to the server is a pain. Once you're in - works pretty smoothly. I haven't turned Dirac back on in over a year (I use it with JRiver but I stopped using it after MultEQ-X came out).
 
What do you guys think about this video? It was linked by a member in another thread. I have some reservations, but then I am the oddball :facepalm:

I personally think that he is limiting his system by sacrificing sub support to make surrounds full range. It would be wiser to invest in more powerful surrounds that extend lower and thus utilize the subs to support the rest of the speakers. In my experience I have done all the experimentation I can possibly do with my system and room limitations. I have an asymmetrical room and I found that separating my speakers and the 4 subs into their own groups ART gets the best performance out of the speakers and ART nails my target in the bass region(+9dB bass rise target). Separating speakers into their own groups works great because my MLP is somewhat compromised and I can't move it unfortunately. And this is the beauty of ART. It can do magic in most difficult rooms.
 
What do you guys think about this video? It was linked by a member in another thread. I have some reservations, but then I am the oddball :facepalm:

Greetings, Oddball. I watched your video, and…

Grouping subwoofers by model and assigning different support ranges can make sense depending on the room and system, but in my case I use the same 20–150 Hz range for all of them.

When aiming to emphasize infrabass, grouping subwoofers and enabling infrabass only on specific units was effective. Recently, however, I no longer use the infrabass option at all.

Treating full-range speakers combined with subwoofers as if they were a single large full-range speaker is outside the core MIMO concept. I personally would not use ART in that way, but if it sounds better subjectively, I do not reject that approach.
 
I'm getting close to setting up ART, hopefully later this week. I will have to look up some of your posts at that time to see ideal settings for initial configuration.
It looks like you may be joining the ART lovers club soon, ban25.
Welcome in advance. Below are the settings I’m currently using.
 
I've never had an issue with MultEQ-X - Dirac is another issue. Even attaching to the server is a pain. Once you're in - works pretty smoothly. I haven't turned Dirac back on in over a year (I use it with JRiver but I stopped using it after MultEQ-X came out).
Never complained about MultiEQ-X. Just Windows as interface. Works pretty smoothly but fan kind of gets out of control etc. You might want to turn on Dirac back on, but depends what you are after.
 
Greetings, Oddball. I watched your video, and…

Grouping subwoofers by model and assigning different support ranges can make sense depending on the room and system, but in my case I use the same 20–150 Hz range for all of them.

When aiming to emphasize infrabass, grouping subwoofers and enabling infrabass only on specific units was effective. Recently, however, I no longer use the infrabass option at all.

Treating full-range speakers combined with subwoofers as if they were a single large full-range speaker is outside the core MIMO concept. I personally would not use ART in that way, but if it sounds better subjectively, I do not reject that approach.
It depends on you system i would say.

I have more or less all out active system and to ad active crossovers and amps is done in a jiffy
With it i also have peq and rephase capabilities.

It is not that i need more low end, but more low end will let ART have more to work with.
As is, surrounds only gives support between 100-150hz @ -10dB
I could offcourse swap them to some JBL floor stander but where is the fun in that ;)
Peerless as you use your self or even Eminence Lab12 should do the jobb.
Small ported cab tuned to 20-30hz
 
Never complained about MultiEQ-X. Just Windows as interface. Works pretty smoothly but fan kind of gets out of control etc. You might want to turn on Dirac back on, but depends what you are after.
I've actually thought about doing that tonight. It was just frustrating dealing with the server issue. Thanks...I think I will....that will decide if I will continue to upgrade it when ART for PC comes out. I know about the fan issue when running it - If you keep your laptop angled and free from obstruction, the cooling fans will quiet down.
 
Greetings, Oddball. I watched your video, and…

Grouping subwoofers by model and assigning different support ranges can make sense depending on the room and system, but in my case I use the same 20–150 Hz range for all of them.

When aiming to emphasize infrabass, grouping subwoofers and enabling infrabass only on specific units was effective. Recently, however, I no longer use the infrabass option at all.

Treating full-range speakers combined with subwoofers as if they were a single large full-range speaker is outside the core MIMO concept. I personally would not use ART in that way, but if it sounds better subjectively, I do not reject that approach.
Greetings Kawauso, with a double bow, we have been sourly missing you, but understand that there is life outside or the forum and hope you are getting the best of it.

Not my video - and I noted on the contrary.

I have some reservations and they are along the same lines as you note. While you could use the ART support in the surround/sub setup, that would have to be for every group so you don't loose on the sub impact, which will not at least theoretically be right for the surrounds that would need to support all the speaker groups. Filter limitations aside. But we don't have an idea of what he really did.

While anything is possible in a given room or setup, to be blunt, the guy is selling this little B 10" sub. A miracle just with a twist of B sub output. But that's not now ART works in general and no directional wonders will happen when you have full range speakers. They already do happen way before that. Happy to discuss in detail if any members are interested. But in the meantime, don't be buying the small subs for your bed channels just on the back of this video.
 
I've actually thought about doing that tonight. It was just frustrating dealing with the server issue. Thanks...I think I will....that will decide if I will continue to upgrade it when ART for PC comes out. I know about the fan issue when running it - If you keep your laptop angled and free from obstruction, the cooling fans will quiet down.
I really recommend Mac. I am writing from 11 year old Mac Pro that is my favourite, although have a much newer/better one for REW and Dirac. No fan ever engaged, no BS, has been working for 11 years. Restart about once a month for sanity.

I change my Windows laptops on a 2 year cycle for work. They are still quite pitiful despite the evident progress they make. I can still do the same with Mac and run virtual with the web interface, but unfortunately the graphics resolution suffers then, at least in implementation that my company has.
 
Talking mac vs pc is very 90's.
 
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