Active Room Treatment (ART) by Dirac

[Mort]

Diraclive question. I hope you will indulge me.

I haven't used it in a while. I'm recalibrating and I keep getting stuck between a clipping error and a signal-to-noise error.
I adjust the vol and the mic gain but there seems to be no place in-between where it's happy. Any tips?

 

[ban25]

Diraclive question. I hope you will indulge me.

I haven't used it in a while. I'm recalibrating and I keep getting stuck between a clipping error and a signal-to-noise error.
I adjust the vol and the mic gain but there seems to be no place in-between where it's happy. Any tips?

If you're on Windows, make sure noise cancelation is disabled in the OS. IIRC there is an "exclusive mode" you can enable in Dirac for the microphone. I use MacOS so I do not have first hand experience with that issue, though it pops up often in forums.

Of course, make sure that the environment is quiet and there is no ambient noise (construction, leaf blowers, trucks backing up, etc.). The mic gain should be at the lowest level where you can get a reasonable signal. Here's a good guide on how to set speaker levels:

Configure microphone and setting speaker levels for measurements in Dirac Live v2 & v3

 

[Oddball]

Respectfully I do not need to read between any lines. To quote Joss (1:17) "if you've got a big open space and it goes far behind you..." That is different than some space between the mlp and rear wall. I'm not arguing about if subs behind the mlp help/hurt/make no difference. I am just pointing out that your post of "EDIT: Additional tip that was very useful was that subs should be at front and back for max effect (decay reduction) and that front only will not be so effective. Again probably in the last 30 min of the video" is not what Joss stated in the video you referenced. If the way you worded it was indeed the tip he was giving I wouldn't be typing.

Then I am all wrong. Thanks for setting me straight. Please go ahead and follow Joss. I have a really bad setup and have really bad adjustments, but they still sound great.

 

[EWL5]

Diraclive question. I hope you will indulge me.

I haven't used it in a while. I'm recalibrating and I keep getting stuck between a clipping error and a signal-to-noise error.
I adjust the vol and the mic gain but there seems to be no place in-between where it's happy. Any tips?

Which mic are you using?

 

[EWL5]

If you're on Windows, make sure noise cancelation is disabled in the OS. IIRC there is an "exclusive mode" you can enable in Dirac for the microphone. I use MacOS so I do not have first hand experience with that issue, though it pops up often in forums.

Of course, make sure that the environment is quiet and there is no ambient noise (construction, leaf blowers, trucks backing up, etc.). The mic gain should be at the lowest level where you can get a reasonable signal. Here's a good guide on how to set speaker levels:

Configure microphone and setting speaker levels for measurements in Dirac Live v2 & v3

I think "exclusive mode" was automatic in newer versions of Dirac...

 

[Vacceo]

Basically the more speakers you have capable of support within the ART frequency range (20-150Hz) - the better the results (within the limits of the number of filters your processor can handle)

So each "standard" THX speaker limited to 80Hz - will only help with the 80-150Hz range, whereas a full range speaker, capable of 40Hz to 150Hz - will provide support right through almost all of the bass range.

If you have 6 speakers supporting the bass region - you can achieve remarkable results (as per my results using 4 full range speakers and 2 subs)

View attachment 507556

Dropping off 1 sub, and using 4 full range +1 sub achieved almost identical results.

You want a sub because full range speakers in most cases, won't extend below 30Hz (and often not below 40Hz) - you can see the rise in decay below 35Hz... this is due to (I theorise!) my 2 subs being "alone" below that - whereas above that I have 5 or 6 contributing speakers.

So from an ART decay control perspective, I theorise that you need more than 2 speakers for any part of the frequency range, but definitely less than 6...

Those who have tried straight stereo with full range speakers - have found ART beneficial too... but it seems like you get 60% of the benefit of ART with 2 speakers, probably 85% with 3 speakers (2 full range + sub?) and 99% by the time you reach 5 speakers (in my case 4 full range + 2 subs)

Definitely diminishing returns with additional speakers... and lots more experience from different people is needed before we can with confidence say where the optimal "sweet spots" are.

If you have 4 subs + 5 speakers capable of 80Hz to 150Hz - your results will probably be just as good as with 2 subs and 4 full range speakers.

With the proviso, that I have not tested SPL extremes... my Subs are the 10" sealed Gallo TR1's... circa 20 years old, very musical, focused on music rather than digging deep - various specs say their F3 is 22Hz or 24Hz - in my setup, I have FSL at 28Hz - but they are not a design known for its loudness!
My mains are Gallo Ref 3.2 - with the exact same woofer as the TR1 sub - but a smaller sealed volume leads to slightly more restrained F3 (spec says 24Hz) - I have FSL at 30Hz
My Surrounds are B&O Beovox Penta with F3 35Hz - I have set FSL at 40Hz

My sub positioning is 1 at the front right (next to R) 1 at rear L (next to SL)

Ideally, from a surround positioning perspective, the LFE should be front and center... but the realities of domesticity tend to be greater deciders in terms of sub positioning.... just as WAF has a substantive impact on the type and size of speakers "permitted".... The 45 year old vintage B&O Beovox Penta, is a very very good option from a WAF perspective! (and happens to be a damn good performer too)

So from your experience, it would be possible to apply ART to a quite "to the limit" case such as building a whole surround system (7 speakers, we´re not counting the Atmos component above) with Mr. Sigberg´s philosophy of offloading to subwoofers while using SBS bookshelves. It would be, ceteris paribus, as capable as using two Sarannas, five SBS´s and a couple extra subwoofers.

I guess for a home theatre system, adding something below 20 hz is insteresting for the cinematic effects (nice if you enjoy organ music too), but it makes sense that ART does not even try to go below audible because as long as you feel the infrasonics, equalizing them does not make a difference.

All that said, I hope we get someone with a bukly account who tries that approach. It would not be cheap, but probably the results can be quite fun. The other setup I had in mind, expensive but more contained, would imply a whole set of KEF R3 meta´s combined with R7 on the front plus a couple subwoofers.

 

[Oddball]

So from your experience, it would be possible to apply ART to a quite "to the limit" case such as building a whole surround system (7 speakers, we´re not counting the Atmos component above) with Mr. Sigberg´s philosophy of offloading to subwoofers while using SBS bookshelves. It would be, ceteris paribus, as capable as using two Sarannas, five SBS´s and a couple extra subwoofers.

I guess for a home theatre system, adding something below 20 hz is insteresting for the cinematic effects (nice if you enjoy organ music too), but it makes sense that ART does not even try to go below audible because as long as you feel the infrasonics, equalizing them does not make a difference.

All that said, I hope we get someone with a bukly account who tries that approach. It would not be cheap, but probably the results can be quite fun. The other setup I had in mind, expensive but more contained, would imply a whole set of KEF R3 meta´s combined with R7 on the front plus a couple subwoofers.

Not sure where you get that. ART will threat your mains as your mains, unless you pull them in the sub group. Sub group will dominate in your ART low frequency response if powerful enough.

Infrasonic is a different topic, but works for many people based on graphs posted. Might include some bumps around 20hz but gets sorted out by 15hz for the most part.

My setup bed channels are pretty bulky, but can't say its why ART works as well as it relies heavily on 4 semi-bulky subs.

 

[Mort]

Which mic are you using?

Umik1

 

[ban25]

So from your experience, it would be possible to apply ART to a quite "to the limit" case such as building a whole surround system (7 speakers, we´re not counting the Atmos component above) with Mr. Sigberg´s philosophy of offloading to subwoofers while using SBS bookshelves. It would be, ceteris paribus, as capable as using two Sarannas, five SBS´s and a couple extra subwoofers.

I guess for a home theatre system, adding something below 20 hz is insteresting for the cinematic effects (nice if you enjoy organ music too), but it makes sense that ART does not even try to go below audible because as long as you feel the infrasonics, equalizing them does not make a difference.

All that said, I hope we get someone with a bukly account who tries that approach. It would not be cheap, but probably the results can be quite fun. The other setup I had in mind, expensive but more contained, would imply a whole set of KEF R3 meta´s combined with R7 on the front plus a couple subwoofers.

I have R3s for surrounds and two KF/C92 subs, so we'll see once the rest of my gear gets here and I start doing ART calibrations. It's looking like it'll be another 2 weeks before my Buckeye amp arrives. I have a feeling that it will be most effective to add subwoofers due to their high SPL and low distortion at the frequencies ART operates in. I am unlikely to go to 4 subs, but I may well go to 3.

 

[Mort]

Does sub placement in the room still matter?

 

[ban25]

Does sub placement in the room still matter?

Absolutely. You can't beat physics. Going from 1 sub to 2, placed in offset corners front and back was the biggest improvement I've made to my system in terms of producing an even frequency response across the room without nulls.

 

[Mort]

Genelec called me today to help with support for my GLM/DiracArt frankensystem and you might expect them to be dismissive of a third-party dsp but they were really interested.

What we want out of GLM is balance, timing, extended phase linearity and the basic EQ they apply below 300 to my mains and subwoofer.

To do that I'll have to set them all to run full range and apply a GLM calibration without a crossover. Then I disconnect GLM and the digital feed, and give each one an analog line from the x3800h running DiracArt and DiracLive (which I doubt I'll use.)

I should get the benefits of both, but it also might be a mess.

 

[AudioJester]

Genelec called me today to help with support for my GLM/DiracArt frankensystem and you might expect them to be dismissive of a third-party dsp but they were really interested.

What we want out of GLM is balance, timing, extended phase linearity and the basic EQ they apply below 300 to my mains and subwoofer.

To do that I'll have to set them all to run full range and apply a GLM calibration without a crossover. Then I disconnect GLM and the digital feed, and give each one an analog line from the x3800h running DiracArt and DiracLive (which I doubt I'll use.)

I should get the benefits of both, but it also might be a mess.

Nice!
This is what I was suggesting to you a few weeks ago, but probably did not word it correctly.
Thats awesome that Genelec are willing to help get it working.

 

[EngineerNate]

This is kind of how I intend to do my active diy speakers. DSP in the speakers to make the free field response as good as possible then art to tame the room.

 

[dlaloum]

Genelec called me today to help with support for my GLM/DiracArt frankensystem and you might expect them to be dismissive of a third-party dsp but they were really interested.

What we want out of GLM is balance, timing, extended phase linearity and the basic EQ they apply below 300 to my mains and subwoofer.

To do that I'll have to set them all to run full range and apply a GLM calibration without a crossover. Then I disconnect GLM and the digital feed, and give each one an analog line from the x3800h running DiracArt and DiracLive (which I doubt I'll use.)

I should get the benefits of both, but it also might be a mess.

But it will assuredly be an educational mess!

Having spent large parts of my working life integrating disparate products... I look at this as way too much effort....
But if someone else goes through the pain and demonstrates adequate gain.... then perhaps it is worth considering!

Good luck with that.... keep us in the loop

 

[seashell]

Genelec called me today to help with support for my GLM/DiracArt frankensystem and you might expect them to be dismissive of a third-party dsp but they were really interested.

What we want out of GLM is balance, timing, extended phase linearity and the basic EQ they apply below 300 to my mains and subwoofer.

To do that I'll have to set them all to run full range and apply a GLM calibration without a crossover. Then I disconnect GLM and the digital feed, and give each one an analog line from the x3800h running DiracArt and DiracLive (which I doubt I'll use.)

I should get the benefits of both, but it also might be a mess.

What are your concerns with mixing the two? For years I've had 8351B as fronts and center and the fronts were connected to digital from my PC and analog from an Integra AVR using Genelec's auto-switching and auto-turn on ISS features. I used GLM to do the room correction for the three GLM monitors so they would be corrected for the stereo setup and then just let Dirac Live do its thing for the surround system which brought in other non-GLM speakers. Dirac didn't seem to have any issue layering on top of GLM. Actually it didn't really do much (as seen in its filters) because GLM had already done much of the work. Dirac saw the three speakers as equidistant even though the center was closer because GLM had already adjusted the delays for the three; exactly as expected.

It was a nice setup because the Genelecs would just wakeup and play for whatever source I was using. For the PC that was especially convenient as there was literally nothing to turn on. Just press play in an audio app and the Genelecs would wake up and start to play.

ART is mostly about the MIMO to fix the room. Having flatter more phase aligned speakers because GLM is active doesn't seem like it should be any problem for ART. It's working fine for my three fronts anyway.

ART has fixed the bass in my room much better than my combo of MSO and GLM did though, so I've decided to drop the direct from the PC mode. Now I'll have to press a button to turn on the AVP for stereo listening. Everything has a price.

I don't have Genelec subs though, so maybe there's something there that complicates things?

 

[Mort]

Had a 30 minute support call from Genelec yesterday. They wanted to hear about my plan to combine GLM and Dirac Art. The best suggestion is to

1) Create a new group
2) Change the crossover to full range
3) Change digital source to analog.
4) Change EQ setting to 'individual'
5) Run auto EQ and auto phase
6) Go into the subwoofer and change the phase back to 0deg.
7) Store all settings (make sure the startup gain is high, at least -20)
8) Turn off all monitors.
9) Disconnect the digital cable (it will automatically use digital if it senses a connection)
10) Connect the AVR to the Genelecs with analog cables
11) Run DiractArt (probably best without DiracLive)

 

[seashell]

Had a 30 minute support call from Genelec yesterday. They wanted to hear about my plan to combine GLM and Dirac Art. The best suggestion is to

1) Create a new group
2) Change the crossover to full range
3) Change digital source to analog.
4) Change EQ setting to 'individual'
5) Run auto EQ and auto phase
6) Go into the subwoofer and change the phase back to 0deg.
7) Store all settings (make sure the startup gain is high, at least -20)
8) Turn off all monitors.
9) Disconnect the digital cable (it will automatically use digital if it senses a connection)
10) Connect the AVR to the Genelecs with analog cables
11) Run DiractArt (probably best without DiracLive)

If you still intend the use the monitors with a digital source when not using the Denon (by running GLM) you can leave the digital cable connected and just select analog as the input when you store the settings. It's a toggle that doesn't show up anywhere but the store settings screen. The GLM release notes even say in the firmware updates "Digital detection deactivated when using analogue setup." and "ISS detection now aligns with input selection."

I had to ask Genelec support about those lines because I was using auto-selection and didn't want to lose that feature if I upgraded the firmware. They were a little confused themselves because the toggle only appears on the one screen.

One thing I would recommend if you really want to use them stand alone is disconnect GLM before you power cycle them so they are absolutely using the stored settings. If the GLM adapter is plugged in it can override the stored settings to whatever group is active in the GLM software and change the volume to last used instead of what is stored. Volume control works even without the GLM software running because the adapter has wired and wireless volume controller options.

 

[Mort]

by running GLM) you can leave the digital cable connected and just select analog as the input when you store the settings

Genelec support seemed to indicate that it would use the digital signal if it picked one up regardless of that setting. I may have misunderstood them.

 

[Wg1]

Had a 30 minute support call from Genelec yesterday. They wanted to hear about my plan to combine GLM and Dirac Art. The best suggestion is to

1) Create a new group
2) Change the crossover to full range
3) Change digital source to analog.
4) Change EQ setting to 'individual'
5) Run auto EQ and auto phase
6) Go into the subwoofer and change the phase back to 0deg.
7) Store all settings (make sure the startup gain is high, at least -20)
8) Turn off all monitors.
9) Disconnect the digital cable (it will automatically use digital if it senses a connection)
10) Connect the AVR to the Genelecs with analog cables
11) Run DiractArt (probably best without DiracLive)

I wonder if ART will limit the support capability offered by your Genelec monitor(s) if it has to work with its GLM-tamed bass response, rather than the potential offered by the much higher SPL “natural” response

Also curious about the double phase correction, and how having two different measurement microphones factors into it, even if you were able to place them in exactly at the same point in space.

I haven’t tried GLM with ART, so I’m curious as to your results. Might also be worth it for you to try just ART alone.