Active Room Treatment (ART) by Dirac

[dlaloum]

So I promised to do some measurements and listening of Dirac ART in my living room 2ch setup (using my x3800H pinched from my home cinema).

For reference I am running Audio First Cadentia 3 Speakers.

No EQ:

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With Dirac Live:

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With ART:

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As to how it sounds... F*cking nuts! With Dirac Live things are good, but the sound seems to stay at the front wall, and seems 'squashed' in comparison. When I switch between the 2 the difference is massive. It's like my speakers have grown and are 'set free'.

The other great news is that I really don't think I need any subs in my room to improve on this. Sooooooooo... Just need to wait for a 2ch device to come out with support for ART. Or go in for an AVR where I don't need the vast amount of the features... Hmm!

AVR's take advantage of economies of scale (at least at the mass market level) - hence devices such as the X3800h provide huge value...

Although in theory, it would make sense that a 2 channel device would be better value - the economies of scale are such that a 16 channel device can end up competing directly with stereo devices....

Stereo devices with a full featured DSP used to be less common than "vanilla" stereo devices - surround by definition required DSP - so the processing power was there in every AVR by default (yes things are shifting in this space... but economies of scale still apply).

As a result it can be more economical to purchase a high value mass market AVR, to act as a 2.1 processor - with the other features (and channels) being a bonus that you may or may not use!

The only downside I can think of is that AVR's typically are more bulky than more compact 2.0 or 2.1 equivalents.

 

[dlaloum]

I think it's to do with the F-support low value I have. My in room response with the speakers is down to 20Hz... But I have them set to 25Hz just because I'm worried! My speakers have an F3 of 41Hz, but I'm getting a lot of room boost, so 25Hz even concerns me slightly.

Maybe I'll lower to 20Hz and see what happens.

FYI, with the default low of 50Hz it literally rolled off my system at 50Hz... Obviously because I wasn't running a sub.

You can see on your ART waterfall, that the decay control is starting to fade below 30Hz... I think this is an indication that you are approaching the limits of what your speakers can achieve... I theorise that it may be due to rising THD...

Pushing it to extend F/R lower down is likely to end up potentially affecting the control you have in the slightly higher frequencies... no reason not to try it though!

 

[dlaloum]

Like you Iam hanging out for a 2-channel ART device, but might just wait till it comes to PC.
The current cheapest option is still another X3800 + Dirac licences. The miniDSP Tide 16 is enticing.

Onkyo's Icon series was originally announced to be getting ART... then they backed off from that commitment.

Chances are that at some point, once they do release ART on their platforms, they will bring ART to the stereo range as well - but I would not be expecting it before 2028

Tonewinner is apparently about to launch their own AVP with Dirac ART - the AT-600... which might be an economical AVP alternative... although my bet is the X3800h with some street price bargaining, will still end up cheaper.

 

[dlaloum]

I am planning to build a 7.1.4 system with the Kef Reference 1 Meta as the main speakers which i also use for music listening. The Reference 1's are high end ported speakers and due to space constrains i am currently using a Kef KC 62 which is a small sealed sub. The Reference 1's ports are tuned at 40hz and are generally very well designed. I would like to run the speakers full range alongside the sub for more even bass distribution in the room. I fear i might degrade the sound quality if i use a sealed sub together with these speakers in terms of phase and group delay or in other ways i cant think of. Does any one here have insight if ART is able to handle ported speakers with a sealed sub and can correct for any potential issues?

ART doesn't care whether the speaker is ported or sealed - the real difference is in the way it rolls off - ported tend to have a sharp roll off leaving pretty much nothing below that F3 point, sealed can often still have substantial performance as the roll off tends to be gentle - and depending on your setup, you may be able to leverage that with ART.

The other thing of note, is that ported designs often have a more substantial rise in THD as they approach their limit - distortion tends to be more constrained at the limits with true sealed designs (less so with ported with "plugs" in the holes...), and I continue to wonder whether rising distortion interacts negatively with ART's "magic".

 

[EngineerNate]

I would expect using ported speakers below their tuning frequency would pretty quickly make the drivers unhappy.

 

[ThELiZ]

You can see on your ART waterfall, that the decay control is starting to fade below 30Hz... I think this is an indication that you are approaching the limits of what your speakers can achieve... I theorise that it may be due to rising THD...

Pushing it to extend F/R lower down is likely to end up potentially affecting the control you have in the slightly higher frequencies... no reason not to try it though!

I did notice that as well, so I checked my THD measurements and I am comfortably under 0.5% in the bass region.

I’ll try going lower and see what results I get in any case.

 

[Mort]

Could I use Genelec GLM for FR and timing, but then add the subwoofer magic of Dirac Art on top?

Well, I just bought a reconditioned X3800h (they got expensive after Art released)

We are going to see what kind of Frankensystem I can make.

 

[dlaloum]

Well, I just bought a reconditioned X3800h (they got expensive after Art released)

We are going to see what kind of Frankensystem I can make.

Interesting point - street price of Denon AVR's rose after they released ART support... (presumably Marantz as well...)

 

[madmortar]

So heard back from Dirac on my issue. When you guys click the "..." for advance options, do you see a drop down for "LFE Reference"? I dont see that option under my sub group or any other grouo. Dirac seemed to think it should be there and perhaps a bug, suggested I hard reset my AVR and/or run a new calibration. I am planning to do both but was curious if you all with DENON AVRs have that option or not?

 

[JRowland]

So heard back from Dirac on my issue. When you guys click the "..." for advance options, do you see a drop down for "LFE Reference"? I dont see that option under my sub group or any other grouo. Dirac seemed to think it should be there and perhaps a bug, suggested I hard reset my AVR and/or run a new calibration. I am planning to do both but was curious if you all with DENON AVRs have that option or not?

Only for Subwoofer 1 (not sure if it is just Subwoofer when they are grouped together), which is the LFE channel that you are making support decisions for. It is right under Fsiso on my Denon 4800 on that group.

 

[R4pture]

Has it already been discussed how upmixers like Auro-3D can be used alongside ART?

I recently upgraded from 7.4 to 7.4.4 and I am now able to use Auro-3D on the Denon 4800. I often use upmixers when listening to two channel music. My initial impression today are very positive but bass performance has changed. Changing the Auro-3D effect strength from the default value 12 to 7 makes a huge difference on the preceived bass performance. It is an obvious difference that I can immediately tell when switching between different values.

I have done some rudimentary research on Auro-3D and the effect strength adds more bass. With the other settings I can even add some bass reverb (not tested yet). I find it interesting and honestly very useful to add extra bass reverb and/or massive bass boost without switching to a different ART-Filter with steeper bass boost.

I wonder if Auro-3D has a negative impact on ART performance and should be avoided. I do like how Auro-3D sounds for two channel music and I can see myself using the upmixer for watching movies.

 

[middlemarch]

Only for Subwoofer 1 (not sure if it is just Subwoofer when they are grouped together), which is the LFE channel that you are making support decisions for. It is right under Fsiso on my Denon 4800 on that group.

Correct, only for the subwoofer group.

 

[middlemarch]

Has it already been discussed how upmixers like Auro-3D can be used alongside ART?

I recently upgraded from 7.4 to 7.4.4 and I am now able to use Auro-3D on the Denon 4800. I often use upmixers when listening to two channel music. My initial impression today are very positive but bass performance has changed. Changing the Auro-3D effect strength from the default value 12 to 7 makes a huge difference on the preceived bass performance. It is an obvious difference that I can immediately tell when switching between different values.

I have done some rudimentary research on Auro-3D and the effect strength adds more bass. With the other settings I can even add some bass reverb (not tested yet). I find it interesting and honestly very useful to add extra bass reverb and/or massive bass boost without switching to a different ART-Filter with steeper bass boost.

I wonder if Auro-3D has a negative impact on ART performance and should be avoided. I do like how Auro-3D sounds for two channel music and I can see myself using the upmixer for watching movies.

If you like the way it sounds, go for it! Auro definitely bumps up the bass level. Although going from 12 to 7 should reduce, not increase, this level. Also try DTS neural x for upmixing, different and doesn't add bass, but I like it as well. DSU is also great, lovely to have all these choices!

 

[dlaloum]

Has it already been discussed how upmixers like Auro-3D can be used alongside ART?

I recently upgraded from 7.4 to 7.4.4 and I am now able to use Auro-3D on the Denon 4800. I often use upmixers when listening to two channel music. My initial impression today are very positive but bass performance has changed. Changing the Auro-3D effect strength from the default value 12 to 7 makes a huge difference on the preceived bass performance. It is an obvious difference that I can immediately tell when switching between different values.

I have done some rudimentary research on Auro-3D and the effect strength adds more bass. With the other settings I can even add some bass reverb (not tested yet). I find it interesting and honestly very useful to add extra bass reverb and/or massive bass boost without switching to a different ART-Filter with steeper bass boost.

I wonder if Auro-3D has a negative impact on ART performance and should be avoided. I do like how Auro-3D sounds for two channel music and I can see myself using the upmixer for watching movies.

The decoders and mixers decide what goes to which (virtual) channel - ie: L/R/SL/SR/C etc...

ART creates the (virtual) channel by using a speaker and supporting it as defined by the configuration. (and then Dirac Live RC applies the Target curve on top of ART) - so for any individual speaker channel eg: L - the active speakers could be L + any of the other configured speakers (or all of them!) - but from a decoder perspective, it is sending the L signal to the L channel. The decoder may decide to send part of the signal to L and part to SL, depending on the effect that is intended... both of those will be virtual channels provided by ART, actual active speakers will be... many!

(I think the original name for ART... Unison... better describes what ART does, the "Room Treatment" part is more or less a side effect!! - an outcome of using speakers in various different locations, thereby overcoming some of the weaknesses of a single position for a speaker)

The layers are seperate and independent... no they don't clash.

 

[R4pture]

The decoders and mixers decide what goes to which (virtual) channel - ie: L/R/SL/SR/C etc...

ART creates the (virtual) channel by using a speaker and supporting it as defined by the configuration. (and then Dirac Live RC applies the Target curve on top of ART) - so for any individual speaker channel eg: L - the active speakers could be L + any of the other configured speakers (or all of them!) - but from a decoder perspective, it is sending the L signal to the L channel. The decoder may decide to send part of the signal to L and part to SL, depending on the effect that is intended... both of those will be virtual channels provided by ART, actual active speakers will be... many!

(I think the original name for ART... Unison... better describes what ART does, the "Room Treatment" part is more or less a side effect!! - an outcome of using speakers in various different locations, thereby overcoming some of the weaknesses of a single position for a speaker)

The layers are seperate and independent... no they don't clash.

Thanks for the clarification!

 

[R4pture]

If you like the way it sounds, go for it! Auro definitely bumps up the bass level. Although going from 12 to 7 should reduce, not increase, this level. Also try DTS neural x for upmixing, different and doesn't add bass, but I like it as well. DSU is also great, lovely to have all these choices!

Yes! There are so many options now. I am very excited to test all of them this week!

 

[Pow1]

So I promised to do some measurements and listening of Dirac ART in my living room 2ch setup (using my x3800H pinched from my home cinema).

Those are some really neat results! I'm saving up for an ART device myself though haven't decided which yet.

I might have missed it but are you running a 2ch setup, or are you using more channels/subs?

 

[ThELiZ]

Those are some really neat results! I'm saving up for an ART device myself though haven't decided which yet.

I might have missed it but are you running a 2ch setup, or are you using more channels/subs?

I’m running a 2ch setup. Those results are without subs.

 

[EWL5]

There was a data breach at Dirac so expect some additional phishing attacks...

 

[KenMasters]

There was a data breach at Dirac so expect some additional phishing attacks...

Yip, I just got the email.